Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1075

Aoi has sent me a warning for no reason falsely accusing me of unconstructive edits and my edits were constructive Gun Control suppresses gun rights which is a human right in the US Constitution

Aoi has also been edit warring and reverting me for no reason leaving no reason Or edit summary at all I need a moderator to help me Dirkbb also edit warred and also neither of them sought consensus to remove my edits so thats also illegal a mod should warn or block them for edit warring, editing without consensus, and Aoi for giving me fake warn — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2D80:5E81:5D00:48BC:AD35:20BA:46E3 (talk • contribs)

Do you also have pronounced feelings on boomerang rights? Dumuzid (talk) 22:14, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

What does that mean — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2D80:5E81:5D00:48BC:AD35:20BA:46E3 (talk • contribs)

It means that you should perhaps peruse WP:BOOMERANG. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 22:16, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

IP editor, you made edits, but have been reverted. You should now make a proposal at the article talk page. If you convince editors that your wording is an improvement, the article will be changed. If you don't, it won't. There is nothing here requiring administrative attention yet. Girth Summit _(blether) 22:18, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Aight bet but why did they revert me without consensus I demand to know because my edit was correct — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2D80:5E81:5D00:48BC:AD35:20BA:46E3 (talk • contribs)

They apparently thought it was not correct; that's how consensus works. Now it's on you to persuade them or enough other people to make your changes. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 22:22, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you IP editor, I've always wondered what it felt like to be dragged to ANI. Aoi (青い) (talk) 22:42, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

You know what you are being passive aggressive and no defense you don't even deny edit warring or reverting my edits for no reason or giving me a fake warning I started a discussion on the talk page

IP person, learning to indent would be a big help to all of us here, and you have sort of started at 90% aggression. You might want to scale that back a bit. Talk things through. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 22:51, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry we started on the wrong foot here I will calm down I just get angry when people don't care

I strongly suggest that any further discussion take place at the article talk page, and that it be focused on the content in question and not the contributors. There is no administrative action required at this point. Girth Summit _(blether) 22:55, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

IP editor, please read about the neutral point of view. Wikipedia does not take a stance on political controversies. We are neutral and that is not going to change. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 22:57, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Also, it's not that people don't care--it's how we do things around here. There's even a name for it: WP:BRD. No one is trying to make you angry or deny what you have to say. But you do need to realize that when you want to change an article, it's on you to convince people that your change makes things better. I'll warn you right now that it's not always an easy task. Don't take it personally if you get reverted--just start putting together your argument. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 22:58, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

You know what I am sorry and will discuss before asking a mod for help

• Xtinageorge (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Xtinageorge has approximately 140 edits, almost all of which consist of adding books by John Maxwell Hamilton to BLPs (apparently to any name ever mentioned in one of Hamilton's books), and almost all of which have been reverted, plus a handful of edits to Hamilton's article which have been revdel'd.

Xtinageorge was warned about spam links twice by me in January 2021 (User talk: Xtinageorge#"Further reading") and about COI by DuncanHill in January 2021 (User talk: Xtinageorge#Managing a conflict of interest). Xtinageorge stopped editing for several months, then started up again today spamming the same books, and was warned by Doctormatt.

Xtinageorge has never posted on a user or article talk page. There is no indication whether this editor even knows about their talk page or seen the warnings. Could an admin block them long enough to make them engage with other editors so they can learn why their edits are inappropriate? Schazjmd (talk) 20:32, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

They are doing it logged out as well. See edits of 2600:8807:305:CC00:B0F0:D5A9:4493:DF2E and 73.184.68.142. There may be more. I am still looking. Notfrompedro (talk) 21:17, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Stevenmevans (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) I suspect the user named above is involved in paid editing without valid disclosure under the WMF Terms of Use (WP:PAID). The user was already informed/warned a few times about the necessity of making such a disclosure. The user edits articles related only to the specific author's agent (Eve White) and their behaviour looks like it is being done for promotional purposes (e.g. adding external links to articles' bodies). The person with a similar name to the user's username has recently started working for the Eve White agency - according to the news: [1]. Best, Tymon.r Do you have any questions? 11:51, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

The singular focus on this obscure literary agent is certainly suspicious, as is the link provided and the user sandbox stating "Intern at Eve White Literary Agency".--Eostrix  (^{🦉 hoot} _hoot🦉) 11:57, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

For info: Discovered this after I put a speedy delete on the draft and a paid editing notice on the draft's talk page. 86.162.136.151 (talk) 12:56, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

• The user has attempted to declare their COI.[2] Bishonen | tålk 13:46, 6 August 2021 (UTC).
  • Clearly one of many young people who are given a job to do in the belief that it's menial and requires no skill or previous knowledge of Wikipedia. No action necessary at present. Deb (talk) 16:35, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

    Deb, have I ever told you that you're awesome? You just cut straight through all our acronym mumbo-jumbo to the heart of the matter. Kudos. Girth Summit _(blether) 23:08, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Please see here and here. Ymblanter has blocked Marek and GCB for edit warring, despite the editor in question not being eligible to edit on the topic in question as they are way below the 500/30 threshold. Which is *specifically* exempt from edit warring. If they arnt unblocked with either an apology (I dont care who apologises, I doubt Ymblanter will proffer one themself) the next step will be ARBCOM to request Ymblanter's tools are removed. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:04, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, I got enough baid faith towards myself today, and, in addition, OID was very clear for many years that they want my tools removed does not matter what, but I do not see why some users should be exempt from blocks for four reverts.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:09, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes I want your tools removed. You lack sufficient knowledge to use them properly and it results in abuse. The restrictions (and where edit warring doesnt apply) around 500/30 editing requirements are very very clear and an admin should be well aware of when they do and do not apply. You clearly do not. I am willing to let it go once again if you apologise to both Marek and GCB and lift the blocks. Or another admin does, but this blatant incompetence when it comes to basic knowledge of how a topic restriction works should not continue. 'Bad faith' in this context by the way would be assuming that you made a bad block, realised it when someone pointed out the 500/30 requirement, and decided to cover it up by blocking the editor who complained. That would be assuming bad faith. I am granting you the more likely explanation that you acted out of ignorance rather than maliciousness. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

I support an unblock. PhilKnight (talk) 20:15, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Unblock sooner than later please.but I do not see why some users should be exempt from blocks for four reverts. Any admin who can't be bothered to read WP:3RRNO has got problems. MarnetteD|Talk 20:21, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

The 500/30 requirement is not listed at WP:3RRNO. PackMecEng (talk) 20:53, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

@PackMecEng: True, although BANEX is which would seem to cover this as well - but you're right the part should be copied over from WP:GS [3]. As I stated on my talk page, I intend to file a request for clarification with ArbCom on the wording of the restriction. Volunteer Marek 21:13, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah looks like it could use an update. I would probably support that! PackMecEng (talk) 22:12, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

This should go straight to ARBCOM for a de-sysop, period.--WaltCip-(talk) 20:27, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

The exemption is for the articles, this is not an article. The arbcom was very clear by writing "articles" rather than "pages", and had a good reason for this, since otherwise revert of discussions from talk pages, for example, would be exempt from 3RR.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:29, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I am too old for this. I completely disagree with the unblock, but I do not want to get to a hospital again. I will unblock. Next time, anybody starts talking about lack of admin, lack of gut, inability to look into difficult cases, remember this case, please. If I am still alive, I will be around to remind you.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:32, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

@Only in death does duty end, Did you discuss extensively with Ymblanter before bringing this here? ANI's are literally the last option if the plethora of trying to use other venues to settle differences and queries amicably are exhausted. Furthermore I see the mention of ARBCOM?? Come on! Now that’s rather uncalled for and don’t you think that’s rather harsh and comes off as “threatening” ? Celestina007 (talk) 20:52, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

No, as Ymblanter is never open to reasoned discussion when they make an obviously wrong action, and their histrionics directly above should give you a decent idea of what their concept of appropriate behaviour is. They already had sufficient discussion on the talkpages of both Marek and GCD and had declined to unblock on the request of another admin. So yes, the appropriate place is ANI for an ongoing incident that needs a quick resolution. And yes, the consequences of their actions being unresolved would be Arbcom, because said earlier discussion had already failed to get them to see reason. There are almost zero actions an ordinary editor can take. Laying out the consequences of your actions may come across as threatening, but then when you treat people like shit, do not expect to get the kid gloves in return. Only in death does duty end (talk) 21:02, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

@Only in death does duty end, so in summary do you believe you both can’t resolve this amicably? I’m pained when genuine and hardworking very productive editors like yourself and Ymblanter have disputes, honestly it is very much saddening. Celestina007 (talk) 00:24, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@Celestina007 Just a note that while it is usually best practice to discuss things before taking them here, whatever - if any - issues OID and YMB have, an unjust block should be dealt with ASAP since the real victims here is an editor (editors) who got unjustly blocked. It would be totally unfair for them to wait days for action (if any) while this was limited to a talk page discussion which could be simply ignored for days or stalled or whatever (no bad faith assumed, simply noting admins can block someone and then be afk for some time, for example). As a review of an admin's action that requires possibly urgent action (unblock) it was totally right for OID to bring this here, IMHO. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:28, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@Piotrus, Yes, I understand that part, the part that has me worried is Only in death does duty end saying he wants Ymblanter to lose their admin bits (note that this are both very productive editors) and the mention of ARBCOM also is upsetting (to me) It’s saddening when productive editors are at loggerheads. Furthermore I don’t think the mention of ARBCOM was necessary, more often than not I think we both can predict accurately what the verdict would be if a case was to be accepted. @Ymblanter, if you can, please just apologize to the relevant parties and to OID especially. We regular editors all make mistakes, and sysops do too as we are all human in the end. Celestina007 (talk) 17:46, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@Celestina007 I think that (referring to "Ymblanter, if you can, please just apologize to the relevant parties") would be the best solution. There is no need for any community actions or sanctions if one acknowledges their mistake and apologizes, to be human is to err. What does worries me, however, is that the comments I've seen from Ymblanter suggests that they don't view their actions as wrong. Not being able to admit one has made a mistake and apologize for it is worrisome in any editor, and doubly so in admin, who has the power to block and delete. With power comes responsibility and the need to be responsible. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:15, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I'd argue that Only in death's behavior has been nothing short of appalling itself. They have taken every opportunity to insult Ymblanter and be as uncivil as humanly possible, with their kindest contribution to this report being, "I am granting you the more likely explanation that you acted out of ignorance rather than maliciousness". Ymblanter's blocks were poorly conducted, yet that is no excuse for an editor to be personally vindictive. BOTTO _(T•C) 17:09, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Botto, I haven't had time to review OID's behavior, although there is undeniably a tension between those editors, to say the least. Nonetheless, "two wrongs don't make a right"; if you feel OID's behavior merits review, I'd suggest a new section or thread; here we are talking about Ymblanter's blocking of two editors and aftermath. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:12, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I do not want to get to a hospital again andIf I am still alive are extremely alarming. I encourage a break - participating in Wikipedia should never provoke such fearful comments. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 20:49, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

• Well, we got most of the way there, but the unblock rationale was really unacceptable ("I want to stay alive"). Does anyone mind if I block each of them for 1 second, making clear they were unblocked because the block was against policy, not because Ymblanter wanted to "stay alive"? Especially, @Volunteer Marek: and @GizzyCatBella:, would you prefer such a notice in your block log? It's trading off clarifying you shouldn't have been blocked for an incrementally longer block log. I won't put such a note in your block logs if you don't want it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:43, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam: I'm fine with it. Volunteer Marek 20:55, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam: - I’m also fine with it. Thank you. - GizzyCatBella🍁 00:28, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek: Since you're unblocked, there's no need to immediately provide this note, so I'll wait until tomorrow if that's OK. That will give Ymblanter a chance to do it themselves, or if not, will provide a more complete ANI discussion for me to link to, or will provide a chance for someone to point out I've completely misunderstood the situation and it wouldn't be appropriate. And it gives me time to grill some steaks (and then eat them), which I've been looking forward to all day. Not trying to weasel out of anything; I'm just postponing until tomorrow. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:38, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

That's fine too. Bon apetit. Volunteer Marek 22:25, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam I concur that the unblock rationale is unacceptable; in fact I suggest it should be WP:OVERSIGHTed since it can even create a mistaken impression death threats were involved or such. While I honestly haven't interacted with or reviewed other actions by the blocking admin, anyone who makes a bad block and then an unblock with such an edit summary is certainly ripe for having their admin status scrutinized (with a nod to the de-sysop comments above). Anyway, I also support your idea of a re-un-block which a good rationale (ideally a link to this discussion when it is archived, but that may require waiting for this to be closed and archived? It probably would be most informative). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:33, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

I have blocked and unblocked VM and GCB adding a proper rationale.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:44, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Apparently it is here. CGB was blocked after their only revert, VM was blocked after 4 reverts of a sock. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:58, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Wow. No warnings to either party at all before 3RR was breached? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:01, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Has the account been blocked as a sock? Ncmvocalist (talk) 21:05, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

I cant see the point tbh. Its clearly either one of the banned users in relation to Poland/WW2/Jews (which isnt a long list), or a clueless IP who just doesnt know they cant edit on the topic. Marek made it clear in the edit summaries that the editor was prohibited, and given the content, its almost certainly one of the Jewish anti-Polish editors. They will be back somewhere else soon enough. Regardless, the editor fails 500/30 for editing in a restricted area and so can be reverted on sight exempt from edit-warring. Only in death does duty end (talk) 21:09, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I see, so warnings are not even appropriate. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:13, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, I think a warning was required to at least signal that an administrator felt that the 500/30 exemption didn't apply because it is Wikipedia-space rather than article-space in which the reverts were being made. That would provide an opportunity for one of the editors to cease reverting, seek clarification if required and/or justify the basis of the block. The clear absence of that was what made this review open and shut. Ncmvocalist (talk) 21:23, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Here is the relevant language from Wikipedia:General sanctions that Volunteer Marek was relying onUnder the 30/500 rule, all IP editors, and accounts with fewer than 500 edits and with less than 30 days' tenure are prohibited from editing content within a given area of conflict. It can be enforced through the use of extended confirmed protection (ECP) or other methods, including page protection, reverts, blocks, the use of pending changes, and appropriate edit filters. Reverts made solely to enforce the 30/500 rule are not considered edit warring. Editors who are not eligible to be extended-confirmed may use the Talk: namespace to post constructive comments and make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive. Talk pages where disruption occurs may be managed by any of the methods noted above. This exception does not apply to other internal project discussions such as AfDs, WikiProjects, RfCs, noticeboard discussions, etc. If this information page is accurate, then Ymblanter is incorrect when they wroteThe exemption is for the articles, this is not an article. As I read the language, the only place where an editor who does not meet the 30/500 threshold can edit about topics such as this is on article talk pages, and nowhere else on the project. Accordingly, Volunteer Marek was correct to revert these edits which were adding Warsaw concentration camp to Wikipedia:List of hoaxes on Wikipedia since that editor is not permitted to do so according to the information page about General sanctions. If the information page is in error, it should be corrected promptly. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 21:28, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

A summary of this language should probably be added to WP:3RRNO, which currently makes no mention of an exception for the 30/500 rule. Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:29, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

• The 500/30 restriction stems from an arbitration case, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism_in_Poland#500/30_restriction, added as a result of this motion. The context behind the ARCA was sockpuppetry, and the reverted account is said to be a sock (above), apparently. The commenting arbs also said "articles" specifically. I think this should be kicked to the Committee at WP:ARCA, to ask whether the remedy only apply to articles or if it applies to all namespaces. ArbCom rulings are one place where language and precision matters, and this one genuinely seems unclear. (Of course, this point is separate from whether the editors should've been blocked for it, and due to the very small distinction, and given that the editors gave their rationale in the edit summary, I think the admin should've realised there was an ambiguity here and ideally decided to get it cleared up, or at worst went the warning route rather than the block route.) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:35, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
  • More: I took a peek to check what the precedent from other arb cases is. The only other arbitration case to authorise 500/30 is Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4, which used an entirely different structure to its general sanctions remedies than the usual case. That one indeed applies in all namespaces, but it explicitly says so (edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of userspace). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:45, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
    • Yes, I think a clarification from ArbCom would be useful here. Volunteer Marek 22:27, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
      • I have asked for clarification at ARCA. — Wug·a·po·des​ 02:27, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Some may be wondering what Ymblanter was talking about when he mentioned tag-teaming by GCB and VM. Running Editor Interaction Analyser (Volunteer Marek, GizzyCatBella) lists the following pages that both VM and GCB edited on the same day (collapsed due to length):

I make no comment about whether or not 30/500 applies to that page/that content, but I will say generally that while I think Ymblanter's concerns are well-founded (per the above), a warning first would have been better than straight to a block. (And I hope he feels better soon.) Levivich 02:38, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Dude. As you very very very well know, both GCB and myself have been targeted with some very odious harassment (including violent threats against my family etc) by THE VERY SAME EDITOR. And then by his socks. Since you defended that editor over the course of the ArbCom case which led to his topic ban, and then participated extensively in the aftermath of that ArbCom case which led to his global ban, you are FULLY AWARE of the background here and cannot plead ignorance. Which means that YOU KNOW there's a very good reason why I would look at GCB's edits and talk page and why she would most likely do the same. It's the SAME SOCKS showing up on articles we both edits. Yet here you are pretending as if there's something nefarious going on BY THE EDITORS WHO HAVE BEEN TARGETS OF ABUSE. Way to enable abusers and blame the victims Levivich. Volunteer Marek 05:11, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

And if you're gonna try to play that game, then here you go [4]. Wanna explain that one? Volunteer Marek 06:04, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

So GCB was blocked over one revert, but Kowkaw, the editor who made three reverts while edit-warring with VM, wasn't even warned? One side of this edit war was punished harshly while the side that arguably wasn't supposed to touch the page in the first place was completely ignored. And are we supposed to believe that someone who made a dozen edits almost a year ago just randomly reappeared, happened to notice this behind-the-scenes dispute, and jumped in with nothing but the purest of intentions? Why on earth was Ymblanter apparently fine with all of that? This situation was handled poorly, and the blocking admin's responses here do little to bolster confidence in their decision-making. I'm particularly annoyed with this remark:I do not see why some users should be exempt from blocks for four reverts. The OP was not suggesting that some users should be generally exempt from blocks; he was arguing that any user who did what VM did in this particular situation should have been exempt from a block. Ymblanter's reply there is a strawman at best and gaslighting at worst. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 03:13, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@Lepricavark Good point. I would very much like to hear Ymblanter's explanation on why they have taken no action whatsoever towards Kowkaw? That new account is obviously very suspicious (per WP:DUCK given the extensive socking in this TA that led to 30/500 and like). Blocking established editors while ignoring a likely sock raises further question's about once competency as an admin, to say it bluntly. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:25, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

I am not going to make this call. I am not a CU, and I will now stay clear from any DUCK blocks probably for years ahead.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:44, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Ymblanter, I am not saying you should have blocked Kowkaw; it's perfectly excusable not to be knowledgeable about the socks and likely masters in this TA. What I don't understand is, however, why you felt that VM and GCB deserve blocks and Kowkaw does not? Weren't they "edit waring" equally? Why block just the established editors and let the newbie scoff-free, without even a warning? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:56, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

The whole story started with VM and GCB reverting users in good standing, not Kowkaw. I actually warned VM to stop edit-warring before Kowkaw even showed up, but they went on to four reverts.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:00, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Your timeline doesn't work. VM was not edit-warring (if that's even an applicable term here) before Kowkaw showed up. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 11:56, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

I checked the timeline, you are right, I warned them after their second revert (the first their revert of Kowkaw). Actually, even after the second revert by Kowkaw, but I probably have not seen that one yet.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:04, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Ymblanter, Can you provide the diffs for that edit warring? And I also can't seem to find the warning? Maybe I am looking at the wrong page(s), but I can only see a single revert by GCB at that hoax list, and I can't see any warnings you issued to them before the block? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:18, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I am lost now. Are we discussing VM or GCB? These are two different stories as far as I am concerned. All edit warring I know of is on one page, and you have by now also participated there.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:21, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't understand what is so difficult in answering my question. Please tell me - and the community - on which page or pages each of the two editors you blocked violated 3RR (or 1RR if applicable), and please link diffs to the warnings you claimed above to have given them. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:19, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Let us to postpone this until after the Arbcom at least has decided whether they are going to have the full case or not.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:39, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Why would a simple clarification require a full case? Volunteer Marek 17:17, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I do not know, but you are on that page as well, and there are people if not arguing for then at least seriously discussing the full case.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:22, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

The Arbs aren’t - they seem to be sticking to the issue at hand. All you got there is one or two editors (one of them posting in violation of their IBAN) who are trying to hijack a simple clarification request to agitate for a new case because they think a new case will “rehabilitate” Icewhiz (there is no world in which that would happen. It’s not like the ArbCom will be all like “oh you made death threats against multiple editors and threatened to hurt their families but you still have a couple friends on Wikipedia so we’ll forgive you and let you back”) Volunteer Marek 18:04, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

We will see. This is not my call anyway.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:07, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Ymblanter, why does this need to be postponed? Just answer the question. And while you're at it, please come up with a better explanation for why you never said anything to the other half of the edit-war. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:18, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

It has to be postponed because if the full case is open (which indeed looks unlikely at the moment) it will be part of my defense, and I have to be very careful about what I am saying. Especially since I still have serious convcentration problems. ANI is not a good place to deal with these issues, but if the ARCA does not result in a full case I will provide the timeline here with the diffs. Concerning your second question - VM made four reverts, their opponent made three at the time of the block, and we have WP:3RR. Note that the two users reverting VM and GCB are not blocked (to be exact, were not blocked last time I checked), though we have a bunch of admins in this very thread.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:27, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

You blocked GCB after 1 revert, but you didn't even give Kowkaw a warning after 3. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:36, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, that's my reading of this case as well. An established editor is blocked for edit warring after a single revert, a suspicious new account is not blocked for reverting three times. No apology or admission of any mistake from the blocking admin after 2-3 days of asking for clarification. What gives? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:17, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

@Ymblanter I see no reason why such a simple yet crucial question cannot be answered NOW. You blocked them for REASONS which should have been grounded in POLICY, in this case, 3RR. Please tell us those REASONS, explicitly, while referencing the policies mentioned. It is hardly rocket science. Please list the 3RR violating diffs and the warnings you said you given them. We don't need to wait for any ArbCom clarification for such a simple list of diffs to be given. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:15, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

@Ymblanter Thank you for taking the time to provide the detailed analysis of the events from your side below. I'll leave it to more experienced and neutral parties to comment first; through per my comments above I think the best solution to end this dramu quickly would be for you to apologize for being too hasty in your blocks (particularly of GCB who did only a single revert). In general, warnings and page protections are better than quick blocks, also there is the 3RR procedure with reports and which gives people at least some window to reply/explain or self-revert. Blocks should be the last resort, not first. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:59, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

This is indeed the point I wanted to address but forgot. I assume that [5] this diff] together with [6] settle the situation. If I were GCB, I would not want anybody to show up on my page to continue discussing this. (As myself, I do not expect anybody who was active in this ANI thread, to show up on my talk page to apologize, and I absolutely do not want user A repeatedly asking user B to apologize to me). If GCB wants apologies, I think they want to make it in some way clear to me.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:33, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Ymblanter - I don't demand any apologies. You take care of yourself, okay? I really hope this episode ends soon, folks. (please!) - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:52, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Good, thanks. Hopefully some of us have learned somethink from the episode.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:58, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

• Ok, fine. I will do it now. The timeline was:
• approximately 2013 I add the page on my watchlist;
• 4 October 2019 Levivich adds the camp piece
• 2 August 2021 20:29 VM removes the text. Their first edit at this page since at least 2012, possibly ever
• 3 august 09:21 Revert by Gildir
• 09:35 Revert by GCB. Their first edit at this page since at least 2012, possibly ever
• I block GCB. The revert is a clear edit-warring. WP:Edit warring allows for blocks for less than three reverts. Reverts are clearly correlated - not necessarily in the sense they have discussed them off-wiki )probably not) but that situatively, they in any case have chosen to collectively revert established users. No socks are in the picture. Now, I know that GCB is just coming from the topic ban on this topic (which I have some recollection I was the administrator who rescinded it, but I did not check, and this is immaterial, this dees not make me involved anyway). They are an experienced user and must know that this revert is unacceptable. Their talk page is full of warnings. I choose the block for disruptive editing (not for 3RR, as claimed above, should have chosen edit-warring) and the duration of 72h, equal to the duration of the previous block.
• On a second thought, this was a poor decision. I mean, it was according to the policies, and if the thing goes to the full ArbCom case, I will be able to defend it, but I should solved the situation in a better way. If I had to do it again I would have left a strongly worder talk page message (similar to what I left as the block notice) but would not block. If it would not helped I would probably have blocked then.
• 10:07 GCB reacts in an appropriate way which I appreciate.
• 13:44 Kowkaw'd forst revert
• 15:10 VM's second revert
• 15:20 VM starts the talk page discussion (which I believe I have not seen before the block).
• VM shows up at the GCB's talk page, They are at this point mostly interested in who ordered me to block GCB and do not seem to believe that it was my own decision.
• 15:23 VM's third revert
• 15:24 At some point in the middle of the discussion, I warn them.
• 15:25 Kowkaw's second revert
• 15:28 VM's fouth revert
• 15:38 I block VM; the time is chosen again 72 h which is the same as GCB but also the same as the VM's last block.

We have a heated discussion again, starting again from BF assumptions (I blocked them because they contested the GCB block), which after some time converges into discussion of whether reverting a banned user is an exemption of 3RR, and I provide the argument that this page is not an article, and the argument is called wikilawyering, at which point I advise them to file an unblock request to have an opinion of an uninvolved administrator. The discussion is still there, this is the diff of my last edit on VM's page which also shows the previous discussion.

• The rest is here. My interpretation of the policy is currently on its way to be validated by ArbCom. There are no relevant diffs outside of the hoax page and the two talk pages, GCB and VM, I know of.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:52, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Now, concerning the VM block, I believe it was a valid block. There were four reverts (one of them of an established user); I gave a warning, though WP:3RR does not even say a warning is required; the edit-warring was collectively performed by two users (ald later other users, including Piotrus, joined - I am amazed that the page has not been protected, though the edit-warring was seen by dozens of admins. Probably everybody understands that none of the sides would let it go, and it will be a lot of shit anyway, whether the admin actions are correct or not). The question whether reverting a sock on a page which is not an article has been brought before ArbCom which seems to be fully supporting my interpretation. Getting a edit-warring warning and continuing to revert, seeing as another edit-warrior has been blocked, is rarely a good idea. Well, I could have just walked away after my warning and pretend I have not seen anything - is this actually what admins are here for? Having said this, the situation would probably not develop if I have not blocked GCB - which, as I said above, was a poor block. May be instead of trying to reply to all BF accusations I should have ignored them and say clearly that the reverts are blockable. I do not know. The whole situation is the topic area seems to unhealthy, and Icewhiz is not the only reason for this, as evidenced by multiple users at ARCA. I have no involvement in the area and this is not something that interests me, but I am not looking forward to the topic area becoming healthy.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:03, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Concerning the two new accounts taking part in the edit-warring, Kowkaw and אברהסה בו , indeed I checked they have low edit-count (I have a gadget installed showing edit-count) but I was not immediately convinced they are socks (may be they are, may be they are not, again, none of them is currently blocked). However, I had a strong suspicion they were NOTTHERE accounts. None of them made more than three reverts (otherwise I would have blocked), and I did not see any urgency in dealing with them. Ususlly we do not warn socks for edit-warring, we block them. When I had more time (probably evening of the same day, I would have looked at them, and likely block per NOTHERE. However, after the ANI thread started, there was no way for me to do it, and I am not going to look at these accounts. Again, there are plenty of other administrators around. If they want to deal with the situation - may be there is a goodr reason for this?--Ymblanter (talk) 07:25, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Now, I have by now given a full account of my motivation and actions in this episode, providing all the diffs, citing the policies, and explaining why my actions were compatible with the policies. This is what I am expected to do according to WP:ADMINACCT. I have done more than that, I have made the introspection of my actions and made conclusions that in some aspects I have acted poorly. Now, WP:ADMINACCT requires that I give a full account of my actions, but it does not require that I answer every single question of any user who want to ask anything. As I already mentioned several times, for me this ANI thread resulted in a medical emergency on Tuesday night, and even today I am not fully recovered, I am not feeling well and have difficulties to concentrate - you may notice that in almost all of my replies an any noticeboards I have to come back and make corrections, and that they have a horrible amount of typos I am unable to catch. This also has impact on my job. Whatever happens, I am not sure I am going to physically survive another thread like this. Since I have to prioritize my health and my job over my hobby, I will absolutely stop taking any decisions which can be even remottely interpreted as controversial. My congratulations, you have lost an active admin.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:25, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Therefore I will restrict my further participation here to an absolute necessary minimum, ideally I will not reply anymore. I apologize for this, but, again, I have provided sufficient information. The case is already before ArcCom, whoever thinks that my actions in this episode were not compatible with me being an administrator should just go there and argue the case. This of course absolutely should not stop the community from discussing the situation, but I would appreciate of this discussion occurs without continuously questioning me. May I please also remind everybody that we have the Terms of Use, which say something (I am not going to look for the actual text now) the discussions in the project must occur in the athmosphere of mutual respect and assuming good faith. This is not exactly what is happening in this thread. Thank you for understanding.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:25, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Ymblanter, you said you wanted to drop this because you were worried about your health and high blood pressure. You even put something like "I want to live" in the unblock - which itself is highly problematic! Yet here you insist on pursuing the matter.

So:

• You skip the very first step. Which is that this was first added by User:Icewhiz on Sept 4. This was literally DAYS before Icewhiz was topic banned from this area. Subsequently, Icewhiz was banned from En-wiki altogether for harassing and doxing multiple users off-wiki. Soon after that he was globally-banned by the WMF because some of the harassment was so fucking vile. I don't know, this seems like quite pertinent info ... so why are you skipping like the most important part?
• Then this was removed by User:Piotrus on Sept 10 (Icewhiz still NOT topic banned by this point) but then *reinstated*, NOT added, by User:Levivich on October 4th as you note (by this point Icewhiz topic banned so he couldn't do it himself). There WAS discussion about it at the time [7]. Levivich DID NOT participate in it (although a couple Icewhiz socks did).
• Let's skip ahead to the part where GCB removed it again and you blocked them. You claim above: "I block GCB. The revert is a clear edit-warring.". THIS. WAS. ONE. REVERT. You blocked someone for 78 hours for one revert. You didn't block the other person who reverted before GCB either. You blocked GCB. For one revert. You claim above: "They are an experienced user and must know that this revert is unacceptable.". NO. There is nothing "unacceptable" about a single revert. You claim above: "Their talk page is full of warnings." NO. This is a falsehood. I don't see A SINGLE warning on GCB's talk page. More importantly YOU in particular DID NOT issue any warnings. Just blocked someone out of the blue for three whole days for making a single revert (you did not block the person who reverted before them).
• You skip another part. Which is that I complained about the egreious block of GCB on their talk page. When I challanged your block you claimed, again, completely falsely, that this was because "it is part of edit-warring after multiple warnings in a contentious area". NO. There were no "multiple warnings". There was not even a single warnings. It is also utterly false that there was any OTHER edit warring by GCB. I looked through their last 1000+ edits going back to May. GCB has NOT made any other reverts (except for reverting some IPs and users with less than 500edits/30days, per the 500/30 restriction, who, btw, are pretty obvious or even confirmed sock puppets.). It's just not true, this is just your post-hoc spurious and false rationalization of a bad block.

When I pointed this out you accused me of "playing games" and "pretending that (I) don't know what you're talking about". This was, again, a deflaction. Someone points out that you're wrong and instead of either a) admitting your error or b) showing that person is wrong, you restor to this rhetorical device of "you're playing games"

• You then claim, quote: "VM shows up at the GCB's talk page, They are at this point mostly interested in who ordered me to block GCB and do not seem to believe that it was my own decision." This is also completely false [8]. NOWHERE in the discussion on GCB's talk page did I ask you or was "interested in" "who ordered you to block GCB". It's simply not there! You are completely misportraying the nature of that conversation! I, as pointed out above, criticized you for blocking someone for a single revert (and only one party) and for falsely claiming that there was some "other", unspecificed, edit warring GCB was guilty of. That's it. There's nothing there about me "not believing it was your decision". Why are you even saying this? Anyone can read that discussion and see it's just not true.
• You blocked me soon after I pointed out that your claims regarding GCB were simply false. I'm sorry to say, and I didn't want to bring this up before, but that looks straight up like a revenge "respect mah authoritah" block. As in - you dare complain about my admin actions? IBLOCKYOUTOO! It very much looks like you got annoyed that your actions were questioned and reacted emotionally by pressing that block button. Your subsequent statements, and the strange unblock-summary, suggest the same thing.
• You claim you "warned me". You said, on GCB's talk page, not mine, at 15:24 "That you continued reverting is not good either". I didn't see it. At 15:28 I reverted the likely sock puppet/account with very few edits again. At 15:29 I saw your comment and explained to you that "I reverted an editor who is an obvious sock per 500/30 restriction as above." You blocked me at 15:38, AFTER you read my response so YOU KNEW that there was a good reason for my revert. You also skip mentioning the part where I repeatedly, in my edit summaries and on the talk page also mentioned the 500/30 restriction. You didn't address that AT ALL. You did not claim that the restriction didn't apply to the page at the time - you only came up with that later.

Likewise, in your above statement you claim that "ArbCom (...) seems to be fully supporting my interpretation". I have no idea where you're getting that. None of the Arbs comments actually address the nature of your block - probably because that's NOT what the request for clarification is about. You reluctantly - after consensus here at ANI - unblocked and that was that. ArbCom is deciding whether the scope of the restriction is limited to articles or is broader. NONE of the Arb comments actually address your particular actions.

I'm sorry Ymblanter. As I said, I was content to let this go after you unblocked me (and GCB) and fixed your unblock-summary (since the initial one - "I want to live" - was so strange, and seemed to have implied that you had been threatened or something). I have no idea why you wish to keep pursuing this matter. But since you did see it fit to provide your "version" of events, I have to reply simply because it is so extremely misleading.

Still happy to drop it if you stop trying to restart it though. Volunteer Marek 07:42, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I am not trying to restart anything, but Piotrus above demanded that I provide the diffs and give my motivation. I had to do it according to WP:ADMINACCT. You may be sure that was no fun for me.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:48, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

His question (and other editors too) was why you didn't block the other editor, Kowkaw, the one with 12 edits who reverted three times (vs. GCB's one revert). Or why you didn't even warn them. None of what you posted above answers that question. Volunteer Marek 07:53, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

What Piotrus said, was, literally, You blocked them for REASONS which should have been grounded in POLICY, in this case, 3RR. Please tell us those REASONS, explicitly, while referencing the policies mentioned. It is hardly rocket science. Please list the 3RR violating diffs and the warnings you said you given them. This is what I have done. Concerning Kowkaw, I specifically addressed them in my response. I understand that many people would disagree, but this was my motivation when I took the decision. Without this disaster, I would have looked at them more carefully.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:29, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

@Ymblanter: Admins usually do the absolute minimum when asked for WP:ADMINACCT. Kudos for going to this level of detail. François Robere (talk) 10:16, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

@François Robere Err, Francois, considering you are topic banned from interacting with GCB are you sure it is a good idea for you to comment in a discussion about a block that involves him (and not you)? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:23, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

@Piotrus: I'm not opining about Ymblanter's actions, I'm just saying him taking the time to compile a thorough answer to your WP:ADMINACCT request is commendable (gosh knows I asked for ADMINACCT more than once and I never got anything even remotely close). If you suspect that's a violation then I'll strike it. François Robere (talk) 12:14, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I was going to help clean up the mess left behind by this dispute, reverting a further 500/30 violation ( although per ProcrastinatingReader's response which I only just saw, perhaps it shouldn't be considered 500/30 resricted?) and leaving DS notices when I noticed that there is no mention of the Antisemitism in Poland case in the list of codes authorized for use. I'm guessing this is just oversight and should be corrected, but given how complicated the template code relating to it is I figured this was better raised for discussion before I go about adding the code. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:44, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

As a further sidebar to the sidebar, I'm impressed that we resisted the temptation of naming the case ARBAIP, to finish the trifecta of ARBIPA and ARBPIA _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:46, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

APL does not authorise a separate DS. Since I believe APL falls entirely within the WP:ARBEE topic area, so I think the DS for that is used. The only special GS (that's still active) authorised by WP:APL is the 500/30. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:02, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah I see, thank you. I guess since it's a GS we don't need to notify people (although it seems like a surefire recipe for flummoxing any new editors that want to edit the topic). _signed, Rosguill ^talk 22:06, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

It's primarily an issue when only part of an article falls under the scope of extended-confirmed restrictions. You can always write a personal note if you come across an editor for whom such an alert seems useful. (The limitation doesn't authorize blocking without warning, so the note would serve to save the editor's time.) isaacl (talk) 00:34, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

I really thought we were done here, with the situation more or less resolved. Ymblanter unblocked, then changed the block rationale, then the clarification request was filed. All good. But then for some reason User:Levivich decided to show up and in a space of less than an hour managed to:

• Restart the edit war by reverting two editors on that page: [9] [10] with the second revert including false WP:ASPERSIONS of tag-teaming based on an arbcom case from... 12 years ago.
• Falsely accused me of "perpetuating a hoax" here and here (his rationale being that I made ONE (as in "1", uno, single", ein) minor edit something like ... 12 years ago to that article (it was a minor copy edit of a badly written sentence). This is one edit in space of 12 years. It is one edit out of thousand+ edits to the article. It is one edit out of tens of thousands of edits I made. I didn't perpetuate any freakin' hoax and this is a very serious accusation. Levivich has refused to strike it (he did strike a part of it) [11] (here is the edit in question. it's 100% obvious that it's just a basic copy edit of a bad sentence [12])
• Accused me and another editor of tag teaming because we edit the same topic area and because ... we have been both been harassed by the same user. That user's edits, btw, correlate with Levivich himself just as much if not more than mine and GCB's [13]
• Accused another editor of tag teaming and refused to apologize when asked [14]
• Started ANOTHER edit war on a related article [15] [16]

It's like he came here, saw the drama, and thought "oh this fire is going on, what it needs is a couple gallons of gasoline!". Can someone please tell him to step back (an apology for the false insinuations and attacks would also be appreciated) and leave this topic alone? I think it's pretty clear that his past support for User:Icewhiz is getting in the way of neutral and level headed editing. Volunteer Marek 06:50, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

For the record, I am the one who asked Levivich to apologize for Wikipedia:Casting aspersions: User_talk:Levivich#Apology_requested_for_your_unfounded_accusation_of_tag_teaming. I honestly thought this was a one-off mistake, and that Levivich will quickly apologize and this will be closed. I am disappointed by him not having done so in his initial reply, but I am holding hope this will be resolved quickly and amiccaby. As for his other edits diffed above, I concur he should now better, they don't appear to be very constructive (since they are de facto restoring edits by indef-banned Icewhiz, and at Wikipedia_talk:List_of_hoaxes_on_Wikipedia#warsaw VM makes a compelling argument that Icewhiz edits were not just wrong (that was my reason for removing them) but were related to his campaign of harassment which led to his indef block. WP:BRV is a cherry on top; really, Levivich, edit warring restoring arguably very problematic edits by indef banned editors and "casting aspersions"; not your best wikiday. I suggest dropping that particular stick quickly before things escalate. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:06, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Describing Levivich's reverts as"edit warring restoring arguably very problematic edits by indef banned editors" is misleading. As the page history shows, Levivich was reverting to restore the long-standing status quo text, which had been uncontested since Levivich took ownership of the banned user's addition by restoring it in October 2019 with an extra source; the recent edit war started with Marek's removal of that text. Yes, a likely sock got involved in the edit war to restore it, but the removal was clearly contested (just as it was back in late '19 when Levivich objected to its original removal) and the first restoration in the recent revival was, as far as I can tell, by an uninvolved, regular editor of that page. The text is sourced, has been in the long-standing version, and recent attempts to remove it have been contested. If editors want to remove it, they should work to build a talk page consensus. Jr8825 • Talk 17:00, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Also, if it was "very problematic", why did the editors who objected to it back in 2019 not continue to pursue the issue in the talk page thread where it was raised at the time, or bring it up at any point between then and now? Returning to the issue several years later and going straight to content removal and not re-opening the discussion that editors were aware of (because they'd previously participated in it) until the sock turned up to fight them ain't cool. Jr8825 • Talk 17:13, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

No it’s not and the information isn't sourced. The "source" is a globally banned user's interview given to Hareetz and then reprinted by a few newspapers. The above-mentioned banned user is also the author of that listing that editors are trying to correct. Please fully familiarize yourself with the issue. - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:10, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@Jr8825 What GCB said, but I suggest this discussion is best to be held at Wikipedia_talk:List_of_hoaxes_on_Wikipedia#warsaw - it is not an ANI's issue, IMHO. Well, aside from restoring edits by indef banned editor, which edits were part of his harassment campaign which led to his indef and global ban. This is of some relevance, I guess. But my main concern with with Wikipedia:Casting aspersions (the unfounded accusations of tag teaming), for which no apology has been forthcoming. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:25, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

As I told VM shortly before he filed this, I won't be around much today (UTC), but I also don't have much to add beyond what I've already said about this on my talk page, the hoax list talk page, and in my edit summaries. I think everything relevant is in my recent contribs but let me know if there's anything else anyone wants me to address. Levivich 13:51, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

• One thing I'll add is the way to resolve the content dispute about whether a particular entry should be listed is to come to consensus about an inclusion criteria for the list (with an RfC if necessary) and then see if the entries meet the criteria. The criteria I'm operating under is "described by RS as a hoax," which this entry meets (links and quotes on the talk page), but of course consensus might be for a different criteria. Levivich 19:34, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

The issue isn’t that we disagree on the merits here. The issue is that you 1) restarted an edit war right as the drama was winding down and more importantly 2) you made an egregious and false accusation that I “perpetuated a hoax” based on… nothing. The latter is a very serious accusation and a personal attack which you refused to apologize for or strike. Volunteer Marek 21:33, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

I said one of your edits in a small way helped to perpetuate the hoax, and I did strike it, which you know, because we discussed that on my talk page. I didn't strike the "minimize the controversy" part but I struck the "perpetuated a hoax" part (diffs and discussion on my talk). Levivich 21:55, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Um, ok, I guess that’s a slight … improvement. And sure, I’ll drop it, I just don’t ever want to see you accuse other editors of “casting aspersions” or such. Falsely accusing someone of “perpetuating a hoax” is a serious and blockable offense. Volunteer Marek 23:31, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

• To be honest, I think we might want to consider sending Wikipedia:List of hoaxes on Wikipedia to MFD. Its negatives to the project plainly outweigh its extremely limited positives; regardless of warnings, memorializing hoaxes risks encouraging people to create more of them, and by necessity listing anything there requires ascribing intent to editors, which leads to bad blood and WP:ASPERSIONS. And, of course, it has now created massive edit-wars that have spilled out into ANI, which is not worth it for an internal page of such dubious value (and which doesn't clearly fall into any of the acceptable categories in WP:PAGES, for that matter - some leeway is fine if a page has theoretical value and isn't a net negative to the project, but it feels like this page tipped into net negative long ago.) If such a list has actual encyclopedic value, and if appropriate sources exist, we could perhaps have such a list in article-space rather than Wikipedia space, but as far as Wikipedia space goes I'm skeptical that the page's stated purpose of helping us research hoaxes is actually useful today given Wikipedia's scale. --Aquillion (talk) 08:24, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
  • The problem is the editors not the page. Levivich 14:24, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
    • Yeah, the problem editors who wish to preserve that joke of an entry at the hoax page as some kind of “shrine to Icewhiz” and who appear to think that a new ArbCom case can “rehabilitate” him. It won’t. The guy was banned globally for EXTREMELY good reasons, and there’s no way WMF is ever unbanning him. At some point it’s time to accept reality. Volunteer Marek 16:50, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
  • WP is, at least in theory, all about openness and critical thinking. Exposing, recording and learning from our mistakes is part of it. How some community members handle such record is secondary to its immense value to the reader. François Robere (talk) 15:03, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Someone please tell me I'm not the only one who notices that while VM takes me to ANI for essentially ABFing, he is ABFing much worse about me? I struck the hoax comments, but he won't strike anything. Is it just me? Levivich 18:26, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

• • Most of this thread is a BF exercise.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:31, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

    Worse than falsely accusing someone of “perpetuating” or “minimizing” a hoax? Volunteer Marek 18:35, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

    For example, the way you keep misquoting me, half a dozen times now. Levivich 18:51, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

    You're being "hysterical" and "divisive", it was six strikes, tops. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:15, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

THE LTA sockmaster Orchomen is at it again. Here is another Orchomen sock:

176.204.120.115 155.246.151.38 (talk) 15:18, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

All our IPs are blocked from editing, the IPs we use to maintain wiki for clients! How can we unblock IPs so we can edit pages? Is important as we have many page to edit and cannot complete work. Help pls. Emptynice (talk) 10:42, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

You could start by saying who "we" are and identifying which IP addresses are blocked. We would probably then need to go on to things like paid editing declarations. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:45, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

and SPAs. And also sock puppet accounts, too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1011:b10a:bf57:e4a7:59d8:47c9:7faf (talk) 11:11, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

According to a now-removed thread on moneysavingexpert, Billy Ego (talk · contribs) wishes to return, apologized for his sockpuppetry, and wants to be a contributor to Wikipedia again.

Yes, what he did was in 2007-2008, a while ago now, but what's your view on things?

The thread was removed from public view at moneysavingexpert forums; also posted to redflagdeals as well.

What should we do about this? --Kathanis92595 (talk) 10:06, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

If they want to appeal their block they need to post the request on their talkpage or via WP:UTRS. Refer them to the guide to appealing blocks. It's a checkuser block so will need CU input as well. -- Euryalus (talk) 11:42, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Given this other thread I am somewhat dubious. --Jack Frost (talk) 11:47, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah me too. Two decade-old blocked users both logging on to "moneyexperts" or wherever, both opining that they'd like an unblock? A surprising coincidence. But assuming good faith the above advice is what I guess we'd say to anyone: unblocks can be appealed at your talkpage, or UTRS, or Arbcom for those few who are banned even from these locations. Your chances will depend on your history and the content of the appeal. -- Euryalus (talk) 11:54, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Of passing interest: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Robeca5020 -- Euryalus (talk) 11:58, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

User:VNHRISHIKESH already has a rather problematic editing history, with in a month one so far successful article creation, and 10 or so failed ones (mostly deleted, some draftified). This includes things like moving Paracelsus to Philips Paracelsus, a name not used anywhere else. They received warnings for the use of their user page for promotion, copyright violations, and general disruption.

On 13 July, they asked for protection of their user page and talk page[40] to preserve it from vandalism. Neither page had ever been vandalized, and the request was swiftly rejected[41].

Today, an IP appears[42], makes two vandal edits to All, and then makes the most gentle of vandal edits ever to VNHRISHIKESH's user talk page[43][44]. The IP then stops editing, and 3 minutes later our editor reappears and again asks for protection[45] (the last edited three minutes before the very short-lived vandal IP appeared). To put the icing on the cake, both the editor and the IP turn out to be from south Kerala.

Vandalizing Wikipedia to get your user page and talk page protected must be among the more stupid things I have seen here, but coupled with the waste of time this editor has turned out to be otherwise for most of their edits, I don't think they should stay around for much longer. (Oh, as an aside, with IP masking in place this would have been a lot harder to check of course). Fram (talk) 07:59, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Though I generally agree that this user may not be ready yet to constructively contribute to Wikipedia, from their personal website they link to at their user page it appears that they are a young editor, and I don't feel that the tone of the report above reflects that very well. Thanks for taking this into consideration, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 14:22, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Okay, can we please block VNHRISHIKESH until they have some more competence and maturity? Since the above, they have given a rather confusing reply[46] with some clarification afterwards[47]: so apparently they claim that they got logged out, vandalized All[48] and again after being reverted[49], then immediately vandalized and undid this at their own talk page[50]: and then not only did they again log in 3 minutes later, but they saw those last two edits and didn't realise they had made those edits and called for protection[51].

And then they started moving their poor articles, which were draftified by a range of editors (including me), back to the mainspace, creating stuff like Factors affecting Temperature distribution (again draftified by me now). You can look at this article at the time of redrafticiation[52] for yourself, note how this article on temperature distribution on Earth starts with a graph of the average body temperature of humans throughout the day, as if that graph has anything to do with the subject.

An editor who one the one hand vandalizes articles to get their user page protected, and on the other hand produces such rubbish articles, is an editor we can do without. If age is a factor, then they can come back once they have matured a lot. Fram (talk) 08:53, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Once more, I agree that VNHRISHIKESH has a serious competence issue (they're already extended confirmed and I'm not sure if they even made one edit that is genuinely helpful), but from all that I can see it is in extremely good faith, and it should be dealt with accordingly. I'm not sure if mentorship really is a thing here (I know that I don't have the time for that), but if no mentor is willing to step up we may indeed need an indefinite block. I just wish we had some kind of procedure to kindly tell off young users who if they would come back in five or ten years time would very likely make great editors. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 17:12, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello, everyone Here is VNHRISHIKESH. I understood that you're going to block me from editing. I think you did't notice my whole edits in this encyclopaedia. I think that my edits were perfect and I can say that I have a competitive mind and maturity. So please don't block me from editing.— Preceding unsigned comment added by VNHRISHIKESH (talk • contribs) 03:21, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

• Indef. The combination of "I think that my edits were perfect" with a clear state of imperfection does not show any possible scope for improvement.--Eostrix  (^{🦉 hoot} _hoot🦉) 09:28, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• Block Indefinitely - Whilst it appears highly likely that this user is fairly young, and we have all suffered from the foolishness of youth at some point in our lives, that does not alter the fact that an increasing amount of time and effort has been spent in tidying up after them; especially so when they are (almost certainly) deliberately wasting people's time by vandalising their own talkpage in order to get it protected for some reason. To be frank, competence is required; block until they can return and contribute positively (which is likely to be in several years time...). --Jack Frost (talk) 13:51, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment This user created a stub called "Pigments in Leaves", which was quickly draftified. They expanded it (with homework-assignment-like prose), and it was declined, twice. They then unilaterally moved it into mainspace without modifications. Oh, and Factors affecting Temperature distribution is somehow live in mainspace again. I lack the inclination to sort out the edit history there. XOR'easter (talk) 21:10, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

• And then today, they created this, which was soon after draftified of course. It now looks like this. Fram (talk) 07:58, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

• Just in case it wasn't clear from my comments above, we need an indefinite block for this editor (though not a community ban!); we just need someone or somehow to do it gently. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 00:55, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support Block, regretfully. This seems like a textbook case of Competence is required. They're obviously trying to edit in good faith, but the complete lack of understanding of core policies like notability and verifiability, combined with issues relating to content forking, unencyclopaedic writing and being unwilling to listen to advice from much more experienced editors means that their contributions are simply becoming a massive time sink. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 15:57, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support block per WP:CIR; too much ongoing work in cleaning up their messes and handling frivolous requests. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 16:06, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support indefinite block Obviously lacks the competence and maturity to constructively contribute long-term. I mean look at Draft:Famous scientists, just created today.--🌀Locomotive207-talk🌀 23:25, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
• Block Their article creations are poorly sourced and often have spelling, grammar, or tone issues. For example, their latest creation Draft:Encounter Marine Park has lots of puffery and mis-conjugated verbs, and no secondary sources. Not to mention that their very first talk page message concerned Atom:some basic facts, a duplicate of the super-basic Atom article. It is apparent from their article creations and lack of response that they have poor command of English. It reminds me of Risean 12345 (talk · contribs), another user I encountered recently who was indeffed for similar reasons. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 05:58, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I have filed a WP:CR request for this thread. They are now editing rapid-fire at Draft:List of famous scientists, a draft they created that is redundant to the various Lists of scientists. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:36, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
• Don't block It appears from [latest reply at the talk page] that they are actually learning. They appear to have taken up advice against their Draft:List of famous scientists, owing to its subjective and redundant scope. Thus, I retrach my previous !vote. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:24, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
  • I don't know. I think that what you seem to be referring to, i.e., this (I realised it. I found your notification. Then I wasted my time......) and this (Thanks for your valuable advice.....), shows once again that they are here in incredibly good faith, but not necessarily that they are competent enough to do more work than they create. If there is no one willing to mentor them (David notMD, Haploidavey?), it may take a long time before they become a net positive. Clearly, it's a difficult call though. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 01:49, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support siteban a textbook case of WP:CIR.Ratnahastin ^tålk 02:07, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
• Comment; he's undoubtedly well-intentioned but seems completely in a world of his own, and when it comes down to it, way too pleased with himself to receive advice or criticism and learn from both (QED time and again). Like others here, I think that's at least partly to do with age, and therefore he might grow out of it but I'm not at all sure this is the place to do it. I'm not sure that his litany of apologies means anything much, or that the User has determination to overcome (or even recognise) basic competence issues, or that I've the patience to help someone who's so determined to go their own way. I mean, you've seen the sheer length of his talk-page? And barely an acceptable edit elsewhere. A net negative. That said, if he was open to mentoring, I might be up for it. But it needs to be at his initiative, and I'd be pretty merciless. Haploidavey (talk) 02:28, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support block If errors were in one area, mentoring might be plausible, but it is creating and abandoning drafts, reverting draftifications, inadequate referencing, grammar problems, and no evidence of being on the steep part of any learning curve. At > 100 edits a week, a massive time sink. David notMD (talk) 02:50, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support siteban Per WP:CIR. I-Bin-A-Bibi (talk) 05:10, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support indef, unfortunately. WP:CIR. DoubleCross (‡) 09:56, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
• Can whoever delivers the bad news PLEASE draft it while keeping in mind that this editor appears to be a young person? EEng 04:22, 6 August 2021 (UTC)