Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive845

User talk:Catflap08#Holocaustverleugnung? apparently contains a German legal threat to Catflap08.John Carter (talk) 20:49, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

If any, his accusations of holocaust denial were a legal threat. And of magnitude in that. -- Horst-schlaemma (talk) 20:58, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Apparently has to do with a comment over at AN3 in this thread: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive248#User:Horst-schlaemma reported by User:Mostlyoksorta (Result: Article protected). As far as a WP:DOLT check goes of this legal threat, I don't think there's anything we need to do to address what triggered the threat. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 21:06, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked Horst-schlaemma indefinitely, with the offer that they could be unblocked if they unambiguously retract the legal threat. -- Atama頭 21:13, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Well to be honest it would be useful to involve a German speaking admin as the threat was posted in German (even though this being the English speaking Wikipedia). Quote: “sondern bereits als an der Grenze zum Rufmord schwelend. Wenn ich so etwas noch einmal lesen muss, leite ich rechtliche Schritte zu deiner IP ein“. So called „legal steps“ in connection to my IP-Address I would consider a legal threat. Please also note the allegation of “Rufmord” (calumny). I myself have not posted the complaint, but have previously contacted Wikipedia via mail. --Catflap08 (talk) 21:25, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Horst-schlaemma sent me an email, stating that "No legal action is in progress or will be forthcoming from my side." I tried to reply, saying that they should post the same message on their user talk page, but my message was bounced back because their mailbox is full. :/

I think I'm going to go ahead and unblock. This isn't a bureaucracy and I can vouch for their retracting the threat. -- Atama頭 21:48, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Oh that’s how one deals with legal threats then? Interesting to say the least that is. --Catflap08 (talk) 21:55, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Maybe I'll be a bit more blunt. Are we sure that is enough, or would some other measures be reasonably considered? John Carter (talk) 22:25, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

First, yes, it's a clear legal threat. Secondly, my understanding of WP:NLT is that a legal threat leads to an indefinite block that is lifted if and when the threat is clearly withdrawn (unless there are other factors, of course). And thirdly, I think this threat needs to be withdrawn on-wiki, not just in an email. We are not a bureaucracy, but even the impression that a legal threat is left standing leads to a chilling effect. So the unblocking was, in my view, a bit premature. I won't reblock, but we should make it clear to the user that he should clearly withdraw the statement in question. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:55, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Catflap, how we deal with them is based on two things, weight depending on who is being threatened, Wikipedia or an individual editor: 1. it is fine to take legal action, but you can't edit while you are taking legal action, via the terms of service. 2. threatening to take legal action has a chilling effect on discussion, it is a blunt instrument used to censor others, thus is more than a little uncivil even if it is an empty threat. This is why a retraction is required, and per Stephan, I think it really needs to be onwiki. From what I see here, he is getting off pretty easy. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:01, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• I definitely agree that the top priority now would be an unambiguous withdrawl of the threat. Has he been asked if he would make one? John Carter (talk) 23:12, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I'll make another request on the user talk page. Unfortunately, as I said this editor apparently isn't getting email (unless they deleted some messages) so sending an email won't help, nor will they be getting email notifications about messages on their user talk page. Not that any of that is a reason why they wouldn't make an on-wiki retraction, but it might explain why they'll be slower to respond. -- Atama頭 23:31, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

If they're not editing, then they don't really need to be unblocked. I'd suggest re-instating the block until the legal threat is unambiguously retracted publicly, so that any chilling effect is undone. BMK (talk) 07:15, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

That is kind of like trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube, and would just add another set of block/unblock entries in their log. I trust Atama to monitor and reblock if they refuse to make an onwiki statement. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:22, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

• Well I am not too sure about the toothpaste issue … one might as well just dump all guidelines. What really bugs me is the fact that the threat was even posted in German. I leave it up to admins to simply take a look at the user’s entries full stop. I was threatened publicly so any retracts should be done the same way. Not my intention to see anyone being blocked indefinitely. --Catflap08 (talk) 17:08, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

• I'm bothered that Horst-schlaemma has not yet responded. It's true that email may not be working, but they were pretty quick to send an email out to me after the initial block, so they should be monitoring their user page. I've reinstituted the block, out of fairness to Catflap08 and to ease the concerns of multiple people in this thread. I'm watching their user talk page to respond if they comment there. I'd expected that an unblock would be uncontroversial if I vouched for the retraction personally but clearly I was mistaken. -- Atama頭 19:47, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

• I won't speak for anyone else, but my concern had nothing to do with my respect for you or for your word -- I absolutely believe that you reported accurately what the editor said to you, and that your unblock was made in good conscience. It's simply that threats made in the light of day should be retracted in the same fashion, publicly and not through intermediaries. The latter gives the impression that perhaps the retraction is tactical, made to restore editing privileges, and not meant in good faith. BMK (talk) 20:52, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

• I probably would not have been as generous as Atama in unblocking before the public withdrawal but perhaps he is just much nicer than I am. Once done, I think waiting to reblock was prudent. And I agree, we've waited long enough, so support his decision in reblocking after giving him a good faith chance to recant onwiki. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 21:21, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

(An aside: apologies to Dennis for the erroneous revert. I am working from a very slow connection, and the screen image has an annoying way of jumping to a new position just as I click on something. I should probably disable rollback when working on such an unreliable terminal.)—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:42, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: I didn't think you doubted my word. :) I just didn't expect people to be so strict about it. I'll remember that in the future. I've always been of the opinion that a legal threat should be matched with a retraction as clear and unambiguous as the threat was, and I tend to be a stickler about that, but I don't know that I've ever seen a situation where the retraction was by proxy. I thought that it would be okay but now I know better. -- Atama頭 22:20, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, this comes across as publicly issuing a threat and then whispering to a single person: "Don't worry, I didn't really mean it." It doesn't come off as an actual retraction that way.--Atlan (talk) 00:15, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Update: Horst-schlaemma has commented on his user talk page but it doesn't look like a retraction John Carter (talk) 14:27, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

So I think I understand Horst's complaint a bit better now. Evidently he takes issue with being called a Holocaust denier (I'm not certain it was explicitly stated but it came close), and seems to argue that calling him one is the equivalent of accusing him of a crime under German law. Doesn't make the legal threat okay, but perhaps there should be some discussion on whether the comment (which I think was here) was appropriate. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 14:32, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

The comments seem to be here and here. All I see is Catflap expressing an opinion of admin action as possible holocaust denial. Horst isn't an admin. John Carter (talk) 15:06, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

The user in question is unblocked and I should apologise (as he stated on his talk page)? Are you serious??? I am sorry but this not a retract. Yes, I did in a discussion question his intentions as being revisionist – which is a matter of opinion. I then was challenged (in German language on the ENGLISH wikipedia by the way) that he would track my IP address in order to file charges on the grounds of calumny (which by the way is in some ways daft as I have no idea who that person is). So to get things right it was me who was legally threatened and the user now asks me to apologise? Well done Wikipedia, well done. I did by the way contact prior to all this Wikipedia via e-mail and the answer was clear as crystal. So either we have guideline or we just dump them. It was ME to whom a legal threat was posted. I never ever said I would file legal charges against the user in question to be in denial of the Holocaust. I have no idea if the denial of the Holocaust is even an issue within the State of Virginia. --Catflap08 (talk) 17:20, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

@Catflap08: you are free to propose any other sanctions you feel appropriate now John Carter (talk) 18:01, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Horst retracted the legal threat. Strictly speaking, that's all that's necessary for him to be unblocked in this case. As a bit of advice, I would suggest you take care when using the term "Holocaust denial" with respect to another editor's actions, as even if such a comment might not constitute defamation (as Horst seems to suggest: calumny is an old-fashioned term for a particularly severe defamation), it's probably a personal attack (so long as it's without good evidence). You aren't being ordered to apologize to Horst or anything, though he seems to think you should. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:05, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I have to disagree it was me against whom a legal threat was posted. The user in question did not retract but asked me to apologise, apologise for what? I never ever said I would take legal actions based on a denial of the Holocaust which, truth must be said, would be a legal matter in the FRG today.--Catflap08 (talk) 18:14, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, he did retract it. You also don't seem to understand what I mean: I'm not saying your statement could be construed as threatening legal action, but that it could be construed as claiming Horst had committed a crime. That is why Horst complained that you defamed him. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:19, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Taking legal action and having opposing views are in my books a separate matter. I have so far not seen any retraction. I was threatened by some obscure IP- actions as a an individual and so far I see no need to apologise. --Catflap08 (talk) 19:21, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

He did retract his threat when he wrote "Anyway, I'm not taking any legal action." Don't confuse a retraction with an apology - he's not required to apologize. BMK (talk) 19:43, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree that there should be nothing wrong with making a simple description. I'm just explaining what Horst's problem was and what led to the legal threat: he seemed to believe he was defamed. When he later claimed that Catflap08 made a legal threat is pure unadulterated bunkum. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 20:09, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Just to play Devil's advocate for a moment, we do have language in WP:NLT to be careful about labeling someone's comments as "libelous" or "defamatory", as those can imply a legal threat. But having said that, I think Horst-schlaemma is vastly overreacting. This is the English Wikipedia, and the average editor is not going to be aware of German law. Most editors here would not assume that calling someone a Holocaust denier is a legal threat or even an implication. My suggestion is that if Horst-schlaemma wants to contribute here, they need to adjust to the culture here, and not expect the community to adjust to theirs. Also, I discourage communicating with other editors in German or other non-English languages even if the person you're communicating with claims to have an understanding of the language at the "native" level (as Catflap08's infobox states) unless there is a prior agreement to use such a language, or if you think that the person's English communication skills are poor, or if there is some other good reason to use that language (you're discussing a concept best described in another language). English should be the default language used here. I'd expect that on the German Wikipedia that German would be the default. It's common sense. -- Atama頭 21:12, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I think this has to be seen in the light of an understandable perception that some comments at Talk:Germany were intended to associate editors who object to certain graphic images of holocaust victims with holocaust denial or revisionist attitudes or (mis-) represent them as attempts to portray Germany as a victim or whitewash German history. Regardless of any legal threats: where this is happening, it needs to stop. --Boson (talk) 21:20, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Certainly it's messed up to suggest that anyone who objects to displaying images of Holocaust victims is a Holocaust denier. I'm not 100% sure that's what happened here, but in principle, I agree that if that were happening it's not right. Relevant to this discussion, I see where Catflap08 stated that "the Admins moves are recently supportive of Holocaust denial", and suggestions on the Germany talk page that resistance to Holocaust victim images (or giving preference to images of rubble in Germany from war damage) is giving in to "revisionist views". But I don't see direct accusations against any single person, including Horst-schlaemma. Catflap08 did ask for Horst-schlaemma to be "blocked" (I think the intention was "banned") from "editing the article on Germany", but that was after accusing admins of supporting Holocaust denial, not Horst-schlaemma. And again, even if there was such an accusation, it might fall under personal attack territory (or possibly just considered uncivil) but isn't a legal threat. It's a different issue, and a difference between a "bright line" rule on legal threats and a discretionary one on personal attacks/incivility. -- Atama頭 23:35, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I totally agree that there is no valid basis for accusing Catflap08 of making legal threats. I think the more relevant policies/guidelines are WP:CIVIL, probably WP:AGF, and possibly WP:NPA. As regards not seeing "direct accusations against any single person, including Horst-schlaemma", most of the comments seem to be directed generally at all the editors who objected to the images preferred by Catflap08 (apparently including me); I don't think that necessarily makes it any less personal, but there is also an edit that directly mentions Horst-schlaemma, though it uses an alternative spelling and gets the name of the German comedian wrong. The comment contains the following text:

That looks to me like a fairly direct statement that Horst-schlaemma is editing Wikipedia with a revisionist agenda. You perhaps need to know that Horst Schlämmer is a fictitious character played by Hape Kerkeling, an openly gay German comedian. I would be interested in an AGF-conforming explanation of the allusion to the actor who plays the eponymous Schlämmer being gay in connection with his namesake's alleged revisionist agenda. As an aside: references to the State of Virginia (?) might be a little shortsighted for German nationals and residents, which might also explain why Horst-schlaemma could be keen to robustly refute any allegations of holocaust denial, particularly in view of recent news about the German intelligence services improving their ability to monitor "social media".--Boson (talk) 01:28, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Since it wasn’t even me who contacted admins on this issue or filed a complaint officially i.e. started this discussion here, be honest I could not care less anymore and simply will stop editing in Wikipedia for the time being. Endless discussions and debates and a bureaucracy that makes me sometimes think to be on planet Vogsphere, correct content seems secondary these days. Enough time wasted. Bye Bye. --Catflap08 (talk) 05:01, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Alright, now I'm allowed to post here, let me put some things straight. 1) As a matter of fact, I didn't suggest a legal issue would be filed, I just stated that one would come along as long as Catflap08 keeps accusing me of committing a crime under German law - that's what Holocaust denial is over here. So indeed, I felt legally threatened. I don't know if that's overreacting, but I made an experience of users being rather erratic and sometimes dogmatic over here. 2) Catflap08 claimed to be of German origin (and speak German) in the actual photo discussion of the Germany talk page. So ofc I assumed I could adress him in German and that he'd be aware of the law. Admittedly, adressing someone in another language at the English Wiki isn't recommended and I'm not doing that again. 3) Again: I'm not undertaking any legal actions and never have. 4) IP monitoring is everywhere, as Boson stated. It's not like you can stroll along, spread critical paddywhack anonymously and expect no one ever takes note. 5) On the initial discussion itself: I stated several times that I think showcasing holocaust corpses at Germany's FA-class country article is plain disrespectful. We're not doing that with other countries' articles either. As we had an ongoing discussion/rfc about it, I reverted any attempt to include it (later the page got protected), as some users tried to establish the image without consensus, no matter what. That's where the "holocaust denial" was coming from, which is utterly ridiculous of course. I won't unfurl my background but it'd already tell you how imbecile that claim is. 6) I wish you all some awesome Thursday and don't you worry at all. Life's great. Cheers, Horst-schlaemma (talk) 08:43, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense. You said: "Wenn ich so etwas noch einmal lesen muss, leite ich rechtliche Schritte zu deiner IP ein." "When I read such a thing one more time, I will start legal proceedings towards your IP". A clear, unambiguous legal threat which you are now downplaying, even denying.--Atlan (talk) 11:04, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

It gets a little tangled, though, because Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany (Laws against Holocaust denial#Germany). Accusing a German citizen of Holocaust denial isn't just saying something potentially defamatory; it's an accusation that they are committing a rather serious criminal act. I am surprised that someone like Catflap08 – who self-identifies as being of German extraction and as having German as his mother tongue – would be unaware of this.

For Horst-schlaemma, Catflap08's repeated insistence that H-S's edits or arguments constituted Holocaust denial or 'revisionism' represent accusations that H-S had committed a crime. Such accusations should not be made lightly. Catflap08's trying to win a content dispute by intimating that H-S is committing illegal acts through his editing is at least as chilling as H-S's post on Catflap08's talk page. While H-S's response was far from ideal, it is at least understandable. Catflap08's conduct should not get a free pass. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 11:47, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Is it clear that Catflap intended to make such an accusation? Maybe I missed something but I don't see that. At the same time, if the point is that maybe HS was reacting to such a potentiality, then that should be taken into consideration. I would think that both could be warned to avoid such back-and-forth type exchanges in the future and simply bring up conduct issues in the proper venue early on, before they escalate.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 12:00, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, saying "X version = promoting Holocaust denial" where the difference between X and Y versions are Horst's edits is tantamount to saying Horst is engaged in promoting Holocaust denial. I'm not saying that justifies the legal threat, but Catflap should stand advised that it's probably not a very good idea to indirectly accuse editors of criminal acts in their home countries. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 12:23, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

It's certainly clear that Catflap intended to accuse other editors of Holocaust denial: [1], [2]. As far as I am aware, he hasn't explicitly stated that he is aware of the legal implications of such accusations in Germany—but I would find it remarkable if a German-speaking person of German origin who is editing on this topic were ignorant of these laws. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:51, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Alright, let's not run into something here. Catflap repeatedly accused others of various things and obviously struggled with editors more than once. Now he told us he'll step back. As long as he's not coming back with another load of knee-jerk accusations and fw, I'm not really bothered at all. For me, the case is rested. All the best, Horst-schlaemma (talk) 13:19, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Just a tip: ANI threads don't work like cases at law, so the fact that you're personally done doesn't have any bearing as to whether the rest of us are done reviewing this case. You should also be careful using legalese around here: it can be mistaken as Wikilawyering or mislead people into thinking you're considering litigation (this can happen if you use terms like "defamation" or "libel" and similar). —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 13:54, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Sure thanks, I'm aware of that. Just saying that I'm not putting any more energy into this, as I feel it'd be a waste of time. Have a good day everyone, Horst-schlaemma (talk) 20:15, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

I've been threaten with legal threats at User talk:Bgwhite#Irish Mob & K&A Gang "edits" by you by 108.52.231.51, aka J.C. Berkery. This concerns edits at Irish Mob and K&A Gang where J.C. Berkery has been inserting his self-published books, with Amazon links, into the external links section of the articles. As I'm involved, I'll recuse myself and let others take action. Bgwhite (talk) 20:24, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

• Involved or not, you can always block for certain obvious violations, such as vandalism, legal threats, etc. I've blocked. There is no ambiguity here in the threat. It was obvious that the goal was to chill discussion and use the threat of legal action to change the behavior of other editors. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:36, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

I was on my way to block but it looks like another admin got to it before me. Chillum ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 20:38, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

• Chillum? Chillum? I thought we lost you years ago. Welcome back. We'll light them up in your honor tonight. Drmies (talk) 22:42, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

• I was distracted, but I am back. Good to hear from you. Chillum ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 22:44, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Just a note that at least some previous edits (not by Bgwhite) in at least one of those articles have fallen far short of the requirements of WP:BLP. I think to the extent that I initially tried to fix them but eventually gave up and unwatchlisted the article. Self-published books aren't a WP:DOLT issue of course, but some other shenanighins (is that an Irish term?) going on there may or may not have contributed to inflaming various people. Handle with care. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:56, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

 Done – Indeffed by Sir Dennis Brown and edits reverted. A.Minkowiski ^{_Lets t@lk} 06:24, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Jpoindex (Jpoindex (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)) is a promotion only editor who is faking verification. See COIN for info on promotional writing around Pulse Recording.

some examples of faking verification:

"Past performers at HARD Events festivals include Deadmau5, Skrillex, Underworld, Diplo, M.I.A., Justice, A-Trak, Steve Aoki, Busy P, Boys Noize, N.E.R.D., Crystal Castles, Digitalism, and many more." Sourced byBaron, Zach (2010-09-13). "HARD Fest on M.I.A.'s Free New York Show: "We Don't Really Want to Be Involved"". Voice Media Group. Retrieved 2013-02-18. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help). Source only mentions M.I.A.

Drew Pearson (songwriter) - ""Home" is the highest selling debut of an "American Idol" coronation song, and held the #1 position on 6 different Billboard charts as well as iTunes." Sourced by"Phillip Phillips: The Billboard Cover Story". Billboard. 2013-01-07. Retrieved 2013-04-01. Source does not verify that. Source says "It has hit No. 1 on a host of Billboard charts like Hot Digital Songs, Rock Digital Songs, Adult Top 40 and Triple A and reached the top 10 on the Billboard Hot 100 (No. 7), Mainstream Top 40 (No. 8) and Adult Contemporary (No. 6)" Four not six charts and no mention of itunes.

Drew Pearson (songwriter) - "He soon moved to Los Angeles, CA where he gained the bulk of his recording studio experience with record producer Greg Wells." Sourced by"Drew Pearson Discography at Discogs". Discogs.com. Retrieved 2013-04-01. Source makes no mention of moving or of Wells.

Jaden Michaels - "By age 20, Michaels had signed a publishing deal with Pulse Recording." Sourced by"Jess to bring it home". Northern Territory News. 2013-07-12. Retrieved 2013-08-25. The only thing source (an article about Jessica Mauboy) says about Michaels is "The 23-year-old singer and actor wrote her new upbeat pop single in Los Angeles with emerging songwriter Jaden Michaels.

``By the time I sat down with Jaden, I was two weeks into the writing session and wanted to write something about home. I was missing home a lot, she said. ``To The End Of The Earth made sense because everything I do connects to back home, to my place in the world." No metion of any deal with Pulse.

Pulse Recording had many examples where sources do not verify claims (mentioned in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pulse Recording). During the AFD other examples were added.

Creative Nation had many examples where sources do not verify claims (mentioned in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Creative Nation).

This sort of deception is typical of Jpoindex who just writes a puff piece then seemingly randomly throws in references related to the subject but do not actually verify most of the claims. duffbeerforme (talk) 13:37, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Cross-posting at two noticeboards is generally not considered necessary. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 16:50, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

User is an SPA, basically trolling the Zeitgeist pages, called Andy the Grump a "fascist"...in this discussion.--MONGO 11:17, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Yup. Par for the course unfortunately, and I doubt that a block would achieve anything of lasting significance, which is why I'd tended to just try to explain policies about sourcing, NPOV, not using the talk page as a forum etc, and then ignore it. Which is fine until experienced contributors start using the talk page as a forum. Experienced contributors including you, Mongo. [62][63] Why should we expect TZM supporters to comply with policies we ignore? AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:51, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

That's right, Andy....why should you expect others to abide by policies that you ignore. I guess it would be unfair to block the SPA for calling you a fascist and not block you for calling him insane....very valid point!--MONGO 15:30, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

That's right - I lost my temper after having to put up with endless soapboxing from the likes of Aeon-characteristic and you on the talk page. What's your excuse? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:36, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Andy! You're the one that started the thread, and its one of several of late that you have been advocating for penalities to be applied against Earl King....and on that page you're insulting everyone and you're doing that here even calling Earl an "obnoxious little shit" above and you want action brought against others yet your hands are just as dirty. Really?--MONGO 17:18, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Clearly an editor who is not here to edit an encyclopedia, but the individual has made no article edits and has only been active for a month. Seems to me like you are just trying to distract from Earl's conduct.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:22, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Block the I.P. and also Andy for gross breaches of editing civility. No free pass for Andy being above the guidelines and in this case over the top breach of civility like a poke in the eye with a sharp stick type of breach. Earl King Jr. (talk) 22:43, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

See below. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 22:49, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

• Blocked Aeon, pretty much per TDA's reasoning. I found him through his edits on my watchlist and not this ANI section - and thus haven't reviewed the comments of Andy or of Earl. Kevin Gorman (talk) 02:14, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I propose this because if he is treating me like this he is also doing it to others Listen, you obnoxious little shit, I have said I'm not involving myself with the article any more - I don't need lectures from a semi-literate dishonest and hypocritical POV-pusher like you on how to edit neutrally. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:10, 26 June 2014 (UTC) end quote. I think this has all gone too far. I don't care how long he is blocked or what the constraints of a block are but maybe it could be for outrageously ignoring standards of civil discourse. Any value that Andy has as an editor I think is annulled by his rhetorical upbraiding for little to no reason of fellow editors. So, I think the statement he made above is a little like a block death wish by him. He is making that statement with utter impunity here. This deserves a block in my opinion. Earl King Jr. (talk) 22:30, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Wow Earl, you just completely violated ANI guidelines by inserting this thread. Hopefully an admin will block you from any further disruption (but I won't hold my breath). -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 22:47, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Given your complete failure to back up your repeated assertions that I'd been engaging in disrupting Wikipedia with the slightest bit of evidence, and give the fact that you responded to my statement that I was taking the articles off my watchlist with a patronising (and semi-literate) lecture on 'neutrality', I suspect that there may well be some sympathy with my characterisation... AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:52, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I am asking that you be blocked for making the statement you made above, this one Listen, you obnoxious little shit, I have said I'm not involving myself with the article any more - I don't need lectures from a semi-literate dishonest and hypocritical POV-pusher like you on how to edit neutrally. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:10, 26 June 2014 (UTC) which to me signifies a lot of your style of editing and interacting with fellow editors. Earl King Jr. (talk) 22:59, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, we can see what you are asking. Though people might well wonder why someone who claims to be offended by my comment feels compelled to repeat it verbatim in successive posts... AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:07, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Because I think you abuse En.Wikipedia using it as a punching bag with little to no regard for people you are supposed to be working with. You do not play fair with others. You bully people. Your initial point that I was POV pushing is not accurate but you will not relent. It has been pointed out by experienced editors here that it is inaccurate. You have support with two pro Zeitgeist editors that you tandem edited the article with prviously. Thats about it. I never insulted you just asked you to stop what you were doing and warned you on your talk page. You then self reported yourself to contest what I was saying about removing the M. Goldberg citation information. Experienced editors, NPOV editors have confirmed this in their opinion here above. Since you originated this litigious of your opinion discussion that I am a pov editor on these article and only have support from SomeDifferentStuff a person formerly blocked on the article for tendentious editing and edit warring and for sure a pro Zeitgeist supporter editor and TheDevilsAdvocate a 911 conspiracy buff blocked numerous times for edit warring pro 911 conspiracy theory, it seems that you characterized the situation wrong and your supporters are either ax grinding Zeitgeist or that 911 was an inside job. Now in this ANI you have done what you did above which is off the charts against guidelines of responsible editing by name calling. I am asking you be blocked because partly you have a long block history of uncivil action that does not seem to deter you in the here and now. The last ani you did you repeatedly called my contributions bullshit, bullshit and more bullshit. You are not above the same expectations that Wikipedia guideline ask for and the original reason for this ani at the very top has not proven out. Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:37, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi all,

Michelle bega has made multiple edits to article Leslie Bega - in which they either remove content verified by reliable sources, or change content not verified by reliable sources (ie. source non-existent). In their latest removal, they made a legal threat here.

Michelle continues to change the DOB of Leslie from 1967 to 1977 and changes the one of three sources used to verify the age from http://www.californiabirthindex.org/birth/leslie_r_bega_born_1967_9778968 to http://www.californiabirthindex.org/birth/leslie_r_bega_born_1977_9778968 — the latter source does not exist. Furthermore, the other two sources used to verify Leslie's 1967 birth, both confirm the latter too: [64], [65]. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 06:43, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

• Blocked for both the legal threat and the continuing disruption after multiple warnings. Black Kite kite (talk) 09:16, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! —MelbourneStar☆^talk 09:18, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

There has been a multi-day pattern of disruptive editing by Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) , specifically on articles and categories related to Misogyny/Misandry:

Today, Obiwankenobi edited the category for “violence against men”, to make it so it’s no longer a subcategory of “Misandry” [[76]] He did this while involved in a debate on the original research noticeboard about that very category in question. The debate specifically involves this category’s relation to the misandry category, so it seems inappropriate to alter the category during the course of the debate. He also seems to be making a lot of controversial edits on many different categories related to misogyny/misandry, I'm not familiar enough to comment on all the other changes, but I think someone knowledgeable about categories maybe should look into the multiple category changes currently being made by this editor.

Additionally, this is all occurring after an informal admin effort to help this user avoid a topic ban for disruptive editing on another article related to misogyny/misandry, YesAllWomen. On this article, Obiwankenobi bludgeoned the article talk page and closed an RfC he was involved in. Full details can be found at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Dennis_Brown#YesAllWomen, but in the end, Obiwankenobi agreed to edit something unrelated for a week or so, to avoid formal action, but this he hasn’t occurred, so it seems formal action may be needed. to avoid issue being brought to ANI. At the very least I think there needs to be more eyes on all the category changes.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 23:29, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Can you clarify where formal action was threatened anywhere? The way you've worded it is that Obi agreed to a week to avoid formal action, but when I read the thread, it appears Obi agreed to a week in good faith.--v/r - TP 23:51, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I realize there's a lot to wade through in the above linked discussion, but here are a couple of difs to relevant comments:

[[77]],[[78]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by BoboMeowCat (talk • contribs) 00:14, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I will leave this in TParis's capable hands, but you are both correct. He agreed to back away, thus avoiding it being taken to ANI, where action was possible. I think you are just wording it differently. ie: "formal action" == "taken to ANI", rather than it meaning any particular sanction. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:05, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

@Dennis Brown: I'm actually heading off to the gym. Sorry, I just wanted clarification on this point. I hate to see good deeds misconstrued as admission of guilt.--v/r - TP 00:16, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

In this case, it was an offer of a good dead after realizing he had probably pushed it a bit far in the discussion, but a good dead is only a good dead if you follow through. Bob doesn't seem to be asking for a block here, he is asking for oversight. I've done what I can, but my methods of come up short, and I'm just not fully well right now. It needs an another experienced, calm mediator to review and assist. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:21, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I hate how the categories are used here, so no comment there. I see nothing to make me think Obi's agreement was to avoid any sort of sanction. Arkon (talk) 00:01, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

For example, it appears that one of the changes put Domestic violence and pregnancy in the "violence against men" category. [[79]]--BoboMeowCat (talk) 00:37, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Only indirectly as a grandparent. In the same way, adding Category:Rape as a subcategory of Category:Violence against women means Male rape now has a grandparent of Category:Violence against women. There are many such inconsistencies, please don't blame them on me! This is due to the nature of this part of the category tree - we have gendered parents with ungendered children like Category:Rape or Category:Domestic violence - so as a result some of the articles in the ungendered categories don't really fit in the gendered grandparent categories. This isn't my doing, this has been this way for a while as far as I know.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:02, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

• comment Bobo is correct that I went too far in a recent debate. I let my emotions get the better of me, but I've apologized, and I apologize again to Bobo and Tara for the disruption there. and I have already stepped away from that particular discussion on the advice of Dennis. As for the other edits, I do a lot of category editing and when categories are mentioned I take a look and make changes if I think they are warranted. The discussion Bobo refers to was not about the proper parent categories of Category:Violence against men but rather whether a particular article should be categorized in a particular category, i.e. Category:Violence against men in North America. I made the change to make Misandry->Violence against men a see also link instead of a parent/child relationship, since violence against men is not always driven by misandry, but often by other motives, such as religious hatred or political violence, terrorism, war, etc (see Srebrenica massacre for a classic example of violence against men that was nonetheless not driven by misandry but rather by ethnoreligious hatred). That said, in the interests of good will I am self-reverting those changes and will engage on the relevant talk pages to seek further consensus. It's too bad Bobo didn't simply bring up these changes to me instead of bringing this content dispute to ANI. I welcome any other suggestions you all have here on how to de-escalate this situation.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:44, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Good point on Srebrenica. Given the historical rareness of Amazons in military ranks, we might as well put Category:Battles into Violence against men, but that doesn't mean that battles should be considered misandry. I quote a relevant passage from Commons:COM:OVERCAT, which is simpler than anything I see here on en:wp —Let the misandry category be for articles about subjects such as militant feminism. Nyttend (talk) 00:55, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, I've reverted those changes now, but I am starting a discussion at WikiProject gender studies to cover this and the misogyny category.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:10, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

It's too bad Bobo didn't simply bring up these changes to me instead of bringing this content dispute to ANI. You shouldn't expect anyone to have unlimited patience with you. Bobo and I had both addressed your tendentious editing on your talk page previously and were rebuffed. When every objection to your behavior is met with 'it's water under the bridge' and 'let's move forward' rather than any acknowledgement that you could have handled the matter better, and when the behavior itself keeps recurring, you have to expect that eventually someone is going to turn to a dispute resolution venue of some sort. -- TaraInDC (talk) 00:59, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

• Let me make an observation: Here just as on my talk page, I think everyone is acting in good faith. Some nerves are a bit raw but no one is asking for sanctions, no one is getting rude. Both sides of the original dispute are frustrated, but that is just part of editing in disputed areas. It happens. We seem to have an agreement by Obi and good faith actions on his part. Perhaps we should just close and walk away and let time heal old wounds. I don't see any "bad guys" here, and I don't want this to get dragged out to a point that we create one. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:12, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I am acting with good faith and I'm not necessarily asking for sanctions. I just think you should be aware that the calm reasonable response that Obiwankenobi has been giving in front of you and other admins, who have the power to impose sanctions, is in contrast to the continued behavior and the repeated rebuffing of fellow editor's concerns. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 01:22, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I really think that a less biased editor should be the one who does things like unlink the category Violence against women from Misogyny or Violence against men from Misandry. The former is a long standing category which covers dozens of articles. More importantly, there are a number of instances where an article would have been in both Misogyny and Violence against women and that it now would not be. The article for Violence against women describes it as "Violence against women (in short as VAW) is a technical term used to collectively refer to violent acts that are primarily or exclusively committed against women. Similar to a hate crime, which it is sometimes considered, this type of violence targets a specific group with the victim's gender as a primary motive." However, Obiwankenobi seems to be convinced that these kinds of violence do not presuppose the victim's gender as a motive. I believe this is to eventually move towards including things such as acts of war as gendered violence and completely restructure the way that both categories are used. Considering this editors contentious stance concerning feminism, I think it is very possible that these efforts are an attempt to "move the goalposts" as it were concerning categories that focus on both men's and women's issues --80.193.191.143 (talk) 01:53, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. If you'd like the participate in the discussion on this topic, I started it at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Gender_Studies#Misandry.2FViolence_against_men.2FMisogyny.2FViolence_against_women. That said, I would be careful about relying upon our wikipedia article, I'd focus on the sources themselves instead, which I provided an example of in the discussion I just linked, which gives about 6 or 7 different reasons for rape in warfare for example. the way we have used these categories in the past is for violence where the victim was selected for violence based on their gender - not where the gender of the victims MOTIVATED the violence - the causes of violence are complex, but they sometimes manifest themselves in particular people being selected for violence based on their gender. For example, sexual trafficking of women is not motivated by hatred of women, but by profit. Sometimes both happen at once, but not always.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:20, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

If we are editing directly against the basic ways that a term is described on website, then it shows we, as a community, have some significant problems with our understanding of said terms --80.193.191.143 (talk) 02:27, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

You may want to read this, which gives about 20 pages of different theories as to the causes and motives of violence against women. Very few of them are "Because they are women". It suggests to me we should update the lede of our article, actually. Anyway, we're getting off topic here.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:52, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, as we all know, Wikipedia is not a reliable source. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 14:22, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

That's true, but without specific guidelines concerning how to use a category, surely we should use how the topic is described on website? --80.193.191.143 (talk) 14:47, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Can we close this now? Arkon (talk) 03:45, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that's a good idea. For one thing, there hasn't really been any contribution by admins and the discussion seems to be unresolved. I'm certainly still very unhappy about how disruptive Obi's editing has been the past few days --80.193.191.143 (talk) 10:39, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't think this should be hastily closed either. It appears the category referred to above “violence against men”, has been nominated for deletion: (here) and the arguments for deletion coming from multiple editors relate largely to Obiwankenobi’s use of this category. I’m not sure the answer, but if admins could help facilitate the use of this category by Obiwankenobi, it might go a long way in saving a category from deletion, which has the potential to be useful. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 14:24, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

A category like that sounds like a novelty item, like the proverbial "man bites dog" (or more recently, soccer player). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:45, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I encourage people to take a look at the sources I provided here which provide some quotes and context for just a small part of the literature around gender-based violence against men (I didn't provide sources around Male rape outside of war, Domestic violence against men, Prison rape, and other forms of gender-based violence against men, I just focused on things like gender-selective killing of civilian males in conflict and sexual violence during conflict enacted against males.) I realize this is a sensitive topic, and many people may not have been exposed to this literature (and some express disbelief that violence against men is a real thing!); and it's certainly a topic much less covered than violence against women, but the topic of gender-based violence against men is a real field of study and I think it's quite useful as a category. Like all relatively new categories, it is still undeveloped and needs help to grow and refine inclusion criteria. Your help and input would be welcome.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

This story is every bit as qualified for a "Violence against men" category as anything you've argued for. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:54, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

−

• Comment: This guy is an embarrassment to Wikipedia and a classic Men's Rights Activist POV-pusher. His disruption is seen across the website on articles related to the topic of "Violence against Men" which is an advocacy position of the MRAs. He denies being involved in such, but in his contributions it is easy to see that his actions are never helpful. At all. jps (talk) 16:35, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

• Doesn't seem to be letting up -- This is what some might call a snow job. Why are we tolerating this kind of behavior? jps (talk) 20:20, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

This is a new concept for me at wikipedia - an editor who on talk pages offers reliable source evidence on why a category is relevant is attacked for doing that. How about you address the sources and content rather than the editor. If you believe the material is irrelevant, then you should make that case. My reading of the material indicates that indeed there are instances where men are subjected to violence because there are men. If you are arguing otherwise, I'd like to understand why?Mattnad (talk) 13:59, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

jps: the only way to get him off gender issues would be a detailed case before ArbCom - "the community" doesn't have the attention span, and there are too many ignorant, sexist doofuses here to ever get community consensus behind a ban for tendentious sexism, or relentless realisation of the MRM agenda. Something like the Noleander case might do it. Does Obiwankenobi misrepresent sources? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:03, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that he is turning "gender-based violence" into "violence against men" as means to claim victimhood where there isn't any evidence that the gender itself is victimized. This is a rather ugly tactic that the MRM has been using as of late, similar to other groups who find themselves with only polemical and ideological support, they twist sources that are completely not about MRA into such. That's basically what's going on here. jps (talk) 17:01, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

jps I've only been tracking the debates around the 2014 Isla Vista killings‎‎ where some editors have objected to adding the category to that page. In my view, there's enough support in reliable sources for including those attacks in Violence Against Men cat. I'm curious to whether or not you'd agree. Is it really a stretch?Mattnad (talk) 17:45, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Of course it's a stretch. The only reason that this is being argued over is because it was pointed out early on in social media that the perpetrator of the shooting spree was a raging misogynist. No, he was not a misandrist. He was a misogynist. And he was directing his hatred towards women as a class. That his violent actions ended up being acted out against men is quite beside the point, but the people who picked up on this are all MRAs with their hatred of the #yesallwomen cri de guerre inspiring action against misogyny. I don't think either categorical violence label really needs to be on that page, but the violence against men category is clearly just being included out of political tit-for-tat. There is no other reason. jps (talk) 18:52, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

JPS do you have any sources that support your assertion that men are not subject to gender-based violence? Any sources, at all? I've provided about 30-40 that explicitly discuss various forms of violence against men as gender-based violence or sexual violence or 'sexual and gender-based violence'. Do you have sources or are these just your personal opinions? Preferably high quality sources like [80] which studied sexual and gender based violence against men and boys in the congo?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:43, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I have already pointed out on my talkpage that what is actually missing is a single source which indicates that men are subject to violence against them solely as a gender. You didn't respond. The study you cite is not looking at targeting men as men, but rather targeting men of the larger groups that are being targeted. But you cynically and MRA-lly use that and other studies which study gender segregation in massacres as evidence for a categorical claim which is not based in sources but only in the misogynistic MRM politics you pretend not to care about but seem to enjoy citing (e.g. Adam_Jones_(Canadian_scholar)). jps (talk) 18:52, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

So are you saying violence against men isn't studied as a topic? Or are you saying you don't think it's a valid /real topic unless such violence is targeted at every man on the planet? Do you have any sources which take this point of view? It sounds a lot like a personal opinion. Me, I go by sources. If a source says "X is gender-based violence against men", I tend to trust it esp if said source is cited by lots of other reliable sources, which is the case with Jones work. What sources are you relying upon? Your contributions have been remarkably source-free. If you think that (violence against (gender)) is not valid unless the whole gender is targeted, then you would be in disagreement with a vast literature on violence against women (and the growing literature on violence against men), which studies the intersection of gendered and sexual violence with relations of power, ethnicity, religion, social structure and so on. You would be hard pressed to find many examples of "I hate all women on the planet" in the VAW category - instead you find such gender-based violence, even against women, intersects with ethnicity or other structures. and by the way, I can cite that too, but will you read it?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:12, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Ah yes, that would be a great idea. Certainly calling people who disagree with you sexist worked out so well last time. Arkon (talk) 15:44, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oh come on guys, this is easy. Support topic ban. WP:PUSH, WP:CHERRYPICK and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Chronic disregard for WP:NPOV and WP:VERIFY.--Atlantictire (talk) 13:14, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. If we topic ban everyone who's willing to work on this topic, then what? I realize that it's a sensitive subject area, but there are also a bunch of overly sensitive people working on it. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 13:27, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Wikipedia needs to crack down on POV pushers who put knowledgable, conscientious editors through weeks and weeks of torturous WP:NOTHERE. That hemorrhages our best people like nothing else. Obiwankenobi, as concisely as possible, please state your claims and provide links to the reliable sources that support them.--Atlantictire (talk) 14:00, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

You're right, we do need to crack down on POV pushers, but Obiwankenobi is not one of those POV pushers. If anything he is the one being put through weeks and weeks of torturous WP:NOTHERE. It is not Obi's responsibility to come here and defend himself unless you first put forth a decent case against him. The original ANI filing did not contain much in the way of diff's to claim Obi was disruptive. And this topic ban proposal contains absolutely nothing other than one editor's unsupported assertions as to his behavior. As such I Strongly Oppose actions against him, and think maybe we should be taking a look at cracking down on some actual POV pushers. --Kyohyi (talk) 14:15, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

If you wanted evidence that Nikola Tesla and not Galileo Ferraris invented the first practical AC induction motor, I could give you five books printed by some of the English speaking world's most reputable academic publishers in less then 10 minutes. Common Obi. Now's your chance to shine.--Atlantictire (talk) 14:27, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Atlantictire. If you're talking about violence against men, I've added a bunch of sources here that discuss the topic of gender-based violence against men You may also be interested in reading this piece which was released last month, entitled "Into the Mainstream: Addressing sexual violence against men and boys in conflict" and highlights the specific issues faced by men who have been victimized by such violence. There is also a recently started campaign with a video here worth watching that covers the double standard of societal reactions to violence against men vs violence against women, which we also see playing out in some of the reactions to these categories. Note that none of these materials come from MRA, they come from respected NGOs, scholars, international organizations, and the like. I think at some point it would be worth developing a decent article on this topic, the old articles which did exist were not good. I realize this is a contentious topic area and I also accept that I have gone too far in certain conversations, and I'm sorry for that, sometimes I let emotions get the better of me, and I have backed away from several discussions already in this regard. I don't think it's POV pushing however to populate a category of violence against men, any moreso than it would be POV pushing to populate the category of violence against women (for example, I created Category:Violence against women in Afghanistan and populated it with several instances. I know there are a few items that have been disputed that have been added to these categories, and I'm perfectly willing to discuss those (not here),and will abide by consensus. If there are other corrective actions you'd suggest in lieu of a topic ban I'm also willing to consider those.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:37, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Obi, you can dispense with the overwrought niceties with me. I consider WP:NPOV far more important than spectacular displays of civility. Let's keep it real.

So that's it? All you've got for me is one paper? That does not a topic make. If a bunch of papers are stitched together via a premise that isn't explicitly advanced by any reliable sources, that's WP:SYNTH.

Second, your paper is in no way arguing that men and boys are targeted because they are men and boys. Do you understand? There are places that are extremely violent where everyone is targeted, and then there's the specific targeting of women and girls because they are women and girls. Your paper even says that even in these places where many men and boys are victimized, victimization of women is still more prevalent. You need to find something that specifically says boys and men are targeted as opposed to women and girls because they are men and boys. Otherwise, you're superimposing an WP:OR reading on your sources and wasting everyone's precious time and driving them insane.--Atlantictire (talk) 15:02, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps we could take this to another board? Maybe we could discuss the category at WikiProject gender studies? Or my talk page, if you wish. Briefly, I didn't provide one paper, if you click the link above, I have provided 11. And that is just on the topic of sexual and gender-based violence in conflict situations. A lot more could be provided around domestic violence, and male rape. At least one of the papers I've found explicitly states "A relatively recent term, coined to indicate mass killing that targets a specific sex, is gendercide. The term denotes sex selective mass murder—that is, killing women because they are women or men because they are men." Many of the other sources call these forms of violence "gender-based violence", which is the stated scope of the category. I agree there is non-gender based violence that affects men and women in conflict, such as bombs going off in market-places or security forces fighting one another, I wouldn't call any of those gender-based violence. re: Synth, remember that we're discussing a category, for which SYNTH doesn't apply. If at some point an article is developed, then you'd have a point re: synth, but some of the sources do explicitly link sexual violence against men WITH sex-selective massacres of men (e.g. gendercide/androcide), and with forced conscription and human trafficking for labor (or, sometimes, sex trafficking). I concur that this topic is not at all covered to the extent VAW is, but it a topic and is differentiated from non-gender-based violence that happens to affect men, such as soldiers, etc.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:06, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Ok, so now we have two papers, which still does not a topic make. One on extremely violent places saying men are targeted as well as women, although women are still targeted more frequently. The other which bizarrely calls men killing men of other ethnicities "gendercide." I believe the non-WP:FRINGE term for that is genocide.--Atlantictire (talk) 15:18, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

I provided 11 papers in the link, actually, did you look? As for men being targeted because they are men, Jones' work on gendercide may be useful here, he studied the history of sex-selective massacres, one of the most famous recent examples being Srebrenica massacre, where the men and boys were separated from the women and executed. Being selected for death because you are a man is the very definition of violence because they are men.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:28, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Jones is not helpful here because Jones is the author of a POV website and not a reliable source. I wouldn't care if the topic were gender discrimination or daffodil varieties. This is NOT about Obi being a sexist pig or something. If you had been doing this to me for weeks, I'd be ready to explode as well. TParis and other admins, this is exactly the kind of endless game that needs to stop if we want to keep people who are knowledgable and serious about content.--Atlantictire (talk) 15:39, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

So, the Journal of Genocide research is not a reliable source? Or... While there has been some academic dispute about Jone's approach, that is no reason to throw out his ideas entirely, esp since they have been taken up by others. Anyway, if you want to discuss the VAM category further please go to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Gender_Studies and start a section there.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:51, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

The "Fringe" argument is starting to take on the boy who cried wolf characteristics. Fringe has deviated on this project from a word meaning deviating from accepted science to meaning anything we disagree with. Biased sources are not banned per Wikipedia:BIASED#Biased_or_opinionated_sources. They should receive appropriate weight for the level they are accepted in academics. If they are poorly received in academics, then we attribute to the source and we don't use Wikipedia voice (and give it less prominence in prose). But it isn't outright banned.--v/r - TP 21:04, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. Nothing has been presented to warrant such a thing. Arkon (talk) 14:55, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban or 1RR restriction This editor is aggressive in both promoting fringe topics concerning men's rights and framing radical and separatist feminism as misandrist. It would really be best if these topic areas were framed by people editing from WP:NPOV and not used to push bias. Furthermore, this user badgers anyone who disagrees with his stance on talk pages with an energy that prevents two-sided debates. These bad edit habits are especially valid in his editing in the Violence against men, Violence against women and Misandry categories where he defines consensus as "whatever I like" and hounds editors who disagree with him on their user talk pages. There is definite WP:OWN on these categories and I don't think you could find a single article in Violence against men that has not been added and defended by him and him alone --80.193.191.143 (talk) 15:30, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oh look, more accusations without diffs! G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 15:41, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose- having unpopular opinions is not a bannable offence. Reyk _YO! 16:00, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

It's absolutely fine to have unpopular opinions. What isn't fine is wasting talk page space and hours and hours of editors' time with endless wordgames and violation after violation of WP:RS, WP:VERIFY, WP:SYNTH and WP:CHERRYPICK in service of a WP:FRINGE POV. WP:PUSH is Wikipedia's deadliest habit, and it's very, very, very civil.--Atlantictire (talk) 16:26, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support. The person is here as a classic POV-pusher for the MRA. His attempt to WP:OWN these types of articles is an extreme and utter distraction. He needs to be removed as unsuited. jps (talk) 16:31, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose - Obiwankenobi is one of the better editors here and a number of people here view him as possible admin material. He is far braver than most to take on such an important yet divisive topic and the amount of personal attacks, false accusations and intimidation he receives for doing so is a disgrace and needs to stop (see this discussion for some examples [81]). The fact that Obi has remained calm and courteous throughout this experience is to his credit. As for issues such as POV pushing and breaches of NPOV etc, well those problems apply infinitely more to the editing patterns of one or two of the people who'd like to see a ban happen and I hope such it boomerangs back against them. --Shakehandsman (talk) 16:51, 26 June 2014 (UTC).
• Comment - 'I'm not ready to vote yet, and will need to think about it more, but Obiwankenobi I'm still concerned because you haven't acknowledged that you've gone too far in your actions. Above, you acknowledge going too far in conversation, but honestly, it’s beyond that. It concerns edit warring “violence against men” category into articles where it doesn't seem to belong [[82]], [[83]],[[84]], and closing RfC you were involved in [85], and aggressive reverting of Kevin Gorman when he was merely trying to clean up that mess you made when your category changes put the article domestic violence and pregnancy into the “violence against men” category. IMO, what is needed to help end the disruption is an understanding on your part that your repeated actions have caused disruption, not just passionate conversation on the issue. Additionally, I think an alternative to a topic ban for Obiwankenobi might be imposing a 1RR restriction for this user in this topic area. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 16:38, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

(fixed ec) Hi Bobo, I have indeed acknowledged going too far, and acknowledge same in terms of editing content as well as on talk page discussions, I was wrong to put that RFC on hold, although I did so with the best of intentions, but I also saw the error of my ways and reverted and apologized and added my neutral framing instead. As for Kevin Gorman's issue, I've discussed this with him already, the basic problem is having a non-gendered category such as Category:Domestic violence that is in a gendered parent like Category:Violence against women. As a result of this, Domestic violence against men is now a subset of Category:Violence against women which is the grandparent; in the same way, Male rape is in Category:Rape which is in Category:Violence against women, thus the inconsistency that so disturbed Kevin actually cuts both ways, it's inherent in the structure and isn't a problem per se with Violence against men, the same problems happen with the VAW category. I've proposed a discussion on the inclusion criteria and on the structuring of both the VAW and VAM categories, but here is not the place to have that discussion, as soon as things calm down I'd be happy to engage and seek consensus on the best structure.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:25, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

I think a 1RR restriction within this topic area would be a great solution to this and probably encourage talk page discussions between editors here. Obi quite often passes 3RR when trying to implement 'Violence against men' to articles and this would help keep the editors patterns in line --80.193.191.143 (talk) 17:29, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment The problem is that there are no reliable sources to support the POV. It's WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. When editors just keep going, playing endless word games, and refuse to surrender to reliable sources while remaining civil, they eventually force everyone into ArbCom. This is deadly for editor retention.--Atlantictire (talk) 18:03, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

I noticed you haven't engaged with the sources I provided. Can you find any sources whatsoever to support your point of view, e.g. that men are not subject to gender-based violence? I'm waiting.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:11, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - This looks like a content dispute, not essentially a behavioral one. BMK (talk) 19:19, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
• Under no circumstance - This is a ridiculous amount of overkill and doesn't fit the situation in any way. There is a content dispute, a little bludgeoning went on, it never got nasty, just frustrating. There is no way I could possibly oppose this any stronger than I do. I find the very idea offensive. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:25, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support. I am familiar with Obiwankenobi's editing pattern and I believe that his is an obvious case of WP:POV pushing in order to right great wrongs. I had lengthy discussions with the editor in three articles where his stated objective was to prove that "gender-based discrimination exists for men". A few editors, myself included, explained that this is not what the articles where about and that we needed to summarize what reliable sources have to say about the subjects (some examples from one discussion about the men's rights movement: [86][87][88][89]), but Obi kept bringing these sources about discrimination against men. I was surprised that an experienced editor didn't seem to understand our core content policies like WP:OR, WP:Synth and WP:NPOV. Since then he has been doing those weird things to our category system, adding his Category:Violence against men and other categories to all kinds of articles (e.g., he says that the 2014 Isla Vista killings is an example of violence against men). This isn't about having unpopular opinions. It's about wanting to fight what he construes as discrimination against men and using Wikipedia as a means, see WP:Advocacy. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 20:31, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

  I find it interesting that your Diffs are to what -other- editors have said, not what Obi has said. Arkon (talk) 20:47, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Sonic, you may disagree on the Isla Vista killings, but about 8 other editors by my count support that categorization, so if I'm guilty of thought-crime on this matter, so are they. Those other diffs are, I think, about a single word "perceived"... anyway, we wikipedians argue over all sorts of things, but that argument was over a single word.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:52, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

THOUGHT-CRIME? Good lord, you're a mean drunk. (joke)--Atlantictire (talk) 23:22, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Please don't go all Nineteen Eighty-Four on me rhetorically. Yes, it may very well be that there are other editors (like this one) who do not understand WP:OR, WP:Synth and WP:NPOV. See Argumentum ad populum. You claim that Rodger killed men because they were men. That's obviously not the case and unsupported by your three sources. It's one of many examples of your editing pattern where you combine published material to advance your POV. I'll let you have the last word now. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 23:45, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Ooo, can I have the last word instead? It's amazing how much that sounds like a content dispute, well no, it's exactly just that. That totally justifies attempting to topic ban someone who disagrees with you, right? (Also I can't help but love your "Obviously" statement, that doesn't sound entrenched and at odds with multiple sources at all.) Arkon (talk) 00:11, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

See this is where you're wrong. I don't give a damn about this topic. What I care about is allowing an editor to drag everyone through this Reddithole of endless bs-ing long after his sources and arguments have been discredited. We do have policies to stop this and nobody uses them. It's a massive drag.--Atlantictire (talk) 00:36, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Obi wan is one of our most thorough and neutral editors and I have the highest respect for him. His participation in the Chelsea Manning naming dispute was one of the only sane voice no matter the side. He was instrumental in developing the RFC that eventually got the article moved and has shown similar thoroughness in other disputes like the Hillary Rodham Clinton naming dispute. He has shown sensetivity in a very sensetive environment. Obi wan consistently works toward productive results and at times has to drag other editors by the collar to get there. When I see editors arguing with Obi on any topic, my first concern is "What POV are they pushing that he is trying to balance neutrally?"--v/r - TP 20:41, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

TParis, I wasn't party to the Chelsea Manning dispute, and have only read about it off Wikipedia but according to the press coverage there were the editors who were dead wrong, the editors who were correct, and the Arbcomers who seemed to think there was a middle ground. Also, it's not hard to know if something is FRINGE. It's got shoddy statistics, or shoddy research design, or cherry picked facts and omits relevant facts that would neutralize the POV. It uses research to support a hypothesis the research was never designed to investigate. I know zero about "men's rights" but that Jones website Obi linked to had nothing going on in terms of research that substantiated Jones' POV.--Atlantictire (talk) 22:12, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Two questions: 1) What does your response to me have to do with Obiwan? 2) Have you read WP:ANI Advice and Wikipedia:Don't bludgeon the process?--v/r - TP 22:23, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

You got me. I'm not the world's greatest wikilawyer. I wandered out of my happy realm of guitar effects onto the the AfD board one day, and have been confounded ever sense by the tremendous tolerance for endless circular discussion long after sources and arguments have been discredited. That is exactly what your fine friend Obi does..--Atlantictire (talk) 22:30, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - per Shakehandsman and Reyk, Obiwankenobi is a good editor, I admit this out of my editing area but, I've never remember this editor as being pushy or any ownership issues. Mlpearc (open channel) 20:53, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I disagreed with Obi-Wan Kenobi lots of times in the past, but this dispute doesn't seem to warrant a topic ban, even if I am not sure of some of his stances. Perhaps Obi needs to learn to compromise a bit more, but this seems just a content dispute. If any contentious point remains unresolved, just go through RFCs.--cyclopia^speak! 21:03, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - Obi's a great editor and let's be honest we need more like him here, As above this seems more like a content dispute and those involved should probably take it the relevant venues or talkpage. –Davey2010 • (talk) 21:08, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - This is politics at work. There are some very motivated editors who take issue with ANY mention that men can be targeted for violence because of their gender. I've only intersected with Obi Wan on the 2014 Isla Vista killings, but I don't see disruptive editing on Obi Wan's part there. It's the opposite, among those who take an extremist view that men were not specifically targeted, not withstanding sources, including Psychology Today that say otherwise:

• "Perhaps the most prominent theme through Rodger's autobiography is envy—his envy of everyone who was succeeding where he was failing. He not only hated women for not fulfilling his needs, but he hated men for being successful with women.,
• "Elliot had made it very clear to his friend that he hated men who could attract women",
• ....{his hatred of women} was only a subset of a general hatred of humanity, and was matched by hatred of men who had better romantic and sexual success....Some have argued that hating other men because they get to have sex with women and you don't is still a form of misogyny; but that seems like a good example of stretching the concept into meaninglessness—or turning it into unfalsifiable quasi-religious dogma. Mattnad (talk) 21:18, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose at this time. I don't think he's there yet. But he's definitely working on it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:26, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Tom and Dennis. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:33, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
• Weak oppose per Baseball Bugs. While I do think that Obi-Wan is arguing from the FRINGE, I haven't found his editing to be especially disruptive (yet). Kaldari (talk) 22:04, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Obi is a good editor. Caden ^cool 22:18, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
• Weak oppose, currently. Depending on the path that Obi's editing takes in the future, I can imagine him eventually ending up with a topic ban in this area, but I don't think he's done anything severely disruptive enough to warrant one yet. I have not followed every single one of his edits, and could conceivably have my mind changed if someone presented a solid enough set of diffs, but haven't seen that set of diffs prevented yet. It's fairly obvious that he's editing from a particular POV, but he is also mostly staying inside the rules while doing so, and is generally pretty collegial. I think some of his patterns of reversions were silly with a couple bordering on obnoxious, but not enough to tban someone for. He certainly should not have removed the VAW cat from an article that explicitly talked about violence against women and children as he did here just because he didn't like the fact that I had taken out the violence against men cat (because the page makes no mention of violence against men in its current state,) but I still think that's not tban worthy. Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:59, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

This in particular was probably the strangest VAM addition (Obis contribution begins about eleven comments in): [90]. It's when a person takes Valerie Solanas seriously that I start to question their understanding of gender studies --80.193.191.143 (talk) 00:28, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - I notice some oppose votes from people who admit to being unfamiliar with what’s been happening in the topic area lately, but are still opposing on basis that Obi has history of being a good editor. Actually, I can understand where they��re coming . While I’m relatively new here, I’ve crossed paths with Obi enough to find him a reasonable editor in past, so was surprised by what he’s been doing in the topic area of violence against men/violence against women. I’m having trouble voting on this because while I think something needs to be done, I think topic ban might be too extreme and something like 1RR restriction may actually be more reasonable. Also, I’m not sure the restriction should apply as broadly as written above. For example, gender discrimination seems broader than necessary, the disruption seems pretty much isolated to violence against men/violence against women from what I’ve seen.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 00:40, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I see this was closed while I was commenting on it, so I suppose deciding how to vote is no longer an issue. I would like to ask the closing admin what Obi "has been put on notice" means exactly. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 00:48, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - Looks unlikely to pass, which is a terrible shame, as the nuance of what this user and a handful of like-minded others have been doing over the past year is difficult to grasp. This is a subtle agenda of marginalizing women's topics in the Wikipedia. It began last April, continued to the agonizing ordeal to get a woman's bio to be disambiguated to something other than an anachronistic "wife of... X" name (see Talk:Sarah Jane Brown, links to 8 move discussions at the top, as well as the Move Reviews), to the equally agonizing discussions to preserve Hillary Rodham Clinton's full name as an article title (9 RMs at Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton, and again, the Move Review]], as well as their negative impact on articles from YesAllWomen to misandry. Why is there a Gender Gap in this project? Exhibit A, right here. Tarc (talk) 00:42, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
• I generally hate quoting diffs of my own comments, let alone after a section has been closed, but I think that my comment on my own talk page to Obi laid out parts of the issue significantly better than my comment here did. Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:45, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

  I rather think this diff, the cute edit summary, and this continuation of horsebeating after the section was closed is much more telling. Arkon (talk) 00:53, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

• I'd also like to post this dif which lays out Obi's stance concerning male rape and female rape, it may be useful for future ANIs [91] --80.193.191.143 (talk) 00:54, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
• As exciting as all this is, maybe you all should consider starting an RfC before you visit ANI to ask admins to wave a baseball bat. Tarc, I'm sympathetic to your arguments, as you may know, and familiar with some of the cases you brought up. I just think that, at this time, an ANI-enforced measure is not the way to go. As for what "put on notice" means--I'm a panda, look it up. I think Obi knows what I means. Drmies (talk) 01:29, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Not to detract from the perspicacity of the learned doctor, but I think "consensus is overwhelmingly against this proposal" would have been a more accurate summation of the discussion that "not even a weak consensus". While Drmies' statement is of course also accurate, the proposal was soundly rejected, in a manner that would make Hakeem Olajuwon envious. The closer's statement should reflect this. Joefromrandb (talk) 07:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Well, you know, YMMV. I might well agree with the spirit (or I wouldn't have closed this so quickly) and not cite the letter. But I think the most important thing to observe here is that ANI is here to solve problems and to point out to editors how they can avoid future trouble; I think Obi realizes that there is significant resistance to their means of pursuing whatever the goal is. I haven't heard from Obi, on or off wiki, but they're smart enough to see that even the very proposal is a serious indication of such resistance, and I hope, I assume, that they're going to act on that--or maybe already are. If an ANI thread can achieve a goal (and let's hope that this one will) without blocks and bans, then we're all better off. I think Dikembe Mutombo would rather see a dunk on the other end than a missed shot followed by a rebound and a fast break and the ensuing need for him to raise his arm and block. So, ANI rejected the proposal but wagged its finger. Thanks Joe, Drmies (talk) 16:21, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Having read some of his comments since, I seriously doubt it will change his editing habits at all --80.193.191.143 (talk) 20:55, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

You're an optimist too, huh? Joefromrandb (talk) 05:36, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I know this isn't WP:AIV (had a report over there long before this one), but 72.181.249.62 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has tripled their vandalism since being reported, with plenty of pages that need deleted and salted. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:01, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to @Acroterion: for the block and cleanup. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:09, 28 June 2014 (UTC)