Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dhanraj Parimal Nathwani (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Liz Read! Talk! 23:19, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dhanraj Parimal Nathwani

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Dhanraj Parimal Nathwani (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Being elected as the vice president of the Gujarat Cricket Association doesn't meet the criteria for notability under Wikipedia's guidelines for politicians (WP:NPOL) or the general notability guideline (WP:GNG). Moreover, a sockpuppet account accepted the article at the Articles for Creation stage. CGGCA201 (talk) 16:46, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Politics, and India. CGGCA201 (talk) 16:46, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:55, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @CGGCA201: Welcome to Wikipedia! I see this is the first time you have nominated an article for deletion. A few minutes before this nomination, you nominated Neeru Yadav (which I'm yet to look at), so these are your first entries. A pre-requisite before nominating is to do some checks as part of WP:BEFORE. Dhanraj Nathwani is the President, and not vice president as your nomination states. I understand that the Career section states vice president, while the lead states president, and the references are from 2019, but he was elected president few months back. See [1] or the GCA page which should have been part of your WP:BEFORE. Jay 💬 17:47, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jay WP:BEFORE check is a must, noted. However, I am currently having some difficulty comprehending how to modify the nomination statement. CGGCA201 (talk) 00:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    If all you want is to change one word, you can use the strike out (... as the vice president of the ...), so participants know what the wordings were earlier. If you want to change the rationale of the nomination, you may strike out the entire nomination, and write your new reasoning under it. If you wish to withdraw, you can add a line under your nomination saying you wish to withdraw and a closer will close the AfD before the scheduled 7 days. Jay 💬 05:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    He is an industrialist and administrator. How does WP:NPOL matter? Jay 💬 08:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jay cricket associations in India are political hotbeds. Regarding Nathwani, how can someone who doesn't have a cricketing background ascend to the presidency of a state cricket administrative body? If he doesn't satisfy the NPOL criteria, he appears to fall short of other Wikipedia standards as well, including the WP:GNG, WP:BIO, and WP:SNG. CGGCA201 (talk) 17:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't have the answer to your question on the criteria for presidency of GCA. The point here is does NPOL matter. The article does not call him a politician. Do others, including himself, project him as a policitian? I didn't understand the second part of your sentence. Are you saying that GNG, BIO, SNG are dependent on NPOL? Jay 💬 17:03, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Do others, including himself, project him as a policitian? The Answer is Yes.
    • Scroll article excerpt: "Dhanraj Nathwani, son of Parimal Nathwani, the Reliance Industries’ Group President overseeing Corporate Affairs and Projects, is vice-president of the committee managing the Dwarkadhish temple in Gujarat. Why would corporate bosses want to be managing temples? According to the sociologist, this adds to the company’s security in relation to the state government. “If they can control the Vaishnav sampradaya, it gives them a political advantage,” he explained."
    His social media posts, specifically the thread, mostly revolve around political pleasantries rather than his actual role in Reliance corporate affairs. This evidence is sufficient to demonstrate his portrayal of political ambitions.
    Now, turning to the second portion of my statement. From my understanding of the notability guidelines, WP:NPOL is an extremely specific category that is considered a final option when we are unable to assess someone's notability according to WP:GNG/WP:BIO at the initial stage, or WP:SNG at an intermediate stage. CGGCA201 (talk) 04:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for responding on the "projecting" part. I was looking for something more explicit. An analyst in his commentary talks about political advantage, and social media posts indicate his ideological leanings. If he had claimed he is a politician, or others had said so, and if the presence of his article on Wikipedia was as a result of the claim of his notability as a policitian, NPOL would have been applicable, however what we have now is a subject who is an industrialist and administrator.
    What you have said regarding NPOL is one of the usages of NPOL, but the way you had worded it in your previous post was misleading. If a subject who is a politician satisifies GNG, it is not necessary that he satisfy NPOL, and vice versa. So considered on their own, they are not dependent. See the WP:BIO#Additional criteria on how the basic and additional criteria work. Jay 💬 05:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I have fixed the Career section to be consistent with the lead, and replaced the 2019 references with the 2022 one. Jay 💬 14:36, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Maharashtra-related deletion discussions. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 18:52, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • The nominator may have erroneously linked the Gujarat Cricket Association with a political party. NPOL only applies to politicians and judges. Since the subject in question is not the president of a political party, NPOL is irrelevant and inapplicable in this case.AmusingWeasel (talk) 13:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 18:37, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep, I think. This article was previously nominated for deletion and speedily kept after the nominator learned that offline sources are acceptable for Wikipedia. I cannot evaluate the offline Gujarati-language sources cited in the article, but I think the English-language sources are likely sufficient to meet the GNG, in that they demonstrate nontrivial coverage of the article subject in independent reliable sources. Based on the outcome of the previous AFD, which doesn't appear to be disputed here, I would have to assume that the Gujarati sources would eliminate any remaining doubt on the subject. -- Visviva (talk) 23:00, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Like many other AFDs, this discussion would benefit from more participation from our experienced editor corps.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 21:50, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep: There are many other reliable sources in the article to satisfy WP:GNG. Some are [2], offline coverage from Divya Bhaskar, Gujarat Today etc. These all discuss the life and career of the subject other than his involvement in GCA. Giksongeorge (talk) 05:34, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okoslavia, you've been editing for 2 1/2 months. I'm glad you are learning about Wikipedia policies. But don't try to tell discussion closers what to do. I've seen you do this twice now, order a discussion closed. You don't have the editing experience to lecture others. Collegiality and getting along with other editors can be as important as knowing Wikipedia code words. Liz Read! Talk! 06:44, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Citations Analysis

    • Citation No: 1 Yuva Bharat: The Heroes of Today By Devir Singh Bhandari (Source date: 26 Jan 2021) - The portion of the book that discusses Dhanraj Parimal Nathwani predominantly consists of his own quotes, with minimal input from the author.
    • રિલાયન્સના ધનરાજ નથવાણી મુશ્કેલ અર્થવ્યવસ્થામાં સકારાત્મક રહેવા પર Citation No:2 (Offline Source date:17 July 2020) - English Translation of the Title: Reliance's Dhanraj Nathwani on staying positive in a tough economy. It is evident from the title itself that this printed article solely presents his perspective on the Indian economy. WP:INTERVIEWS
    • Citation No: 3 Top RIL executive succeeds Amit Shah as Gujarat cricket body chief (Source date: 20 Nov 2022) - A citation from a reliable source, as added by Jay, in accordance with WP:RS.
    • Citation No: 4 The Political Fix: What does the 'Narendra Modi Cricket stadium' tell us about his politics? (Source date: 1 May 2021)- There is only a minimal mention that briefly discusses Dhanraj Parimal Nathwani's presence on a stage alongside his father. It lacks substantial coverage on him, but it clearly indicates that his appointment as GCA president is a political decision.
    • ધનરાજ નથવાણી જીસીએના નવા પ્રમુખ છે Citation No:5 (Offline Source date:29 Sep 2019) - English Translation of the Title: Dhanraj Nathwani is the new president of GCA. WP:CHURN
    • Citation No: 6 Find out who is Dhanraj Nathani, the new chairman of the GCA. (Source date:28 Sep 2019)- Merely a profile of Dhanraj Parimal Nathwani found on a generic media portal that does not meet the criteria of being considered a reliable source according to WP:RS.
    • Citation No: 7 Dhanraj Nathwani unanimously elected president of GSFA (Source date: 7 Aug 2017)- It is merely an announcement of his election as the head of the state football association. I question whether it even qualifies as WP:FOOTY
    • Citation No: 8 GCA elects all officials, except Amit Shah’s successor (Source date: 29 Sep 2017) - There is a brief mention of Dhanraj Parimal Nathwani being appointed as a vice president of GCA (Gujarat Cricket Association). However, it lacks significant coverage or in-depth information. WP:SIGCOV.
    • Citation No: 9 Dhanraj Nathwani takes over as Vice Chairman of Dwarka Devasthan Samiti (Source date: 11 Aug 2016) - The text simply serves as an announcement of Dhanraj Parimal Nathwani's election as the leader of a religious organization. Interestingly, it also highlights a pattern in his career advancement. It appears that positions previously held by his father, whether in Reliance Industries, Gujarat Cricket Association, or Dwarka Devasthan Samiti, have been directly transferred to him without any opposition. It is quite evident that when his father resigns from Rajya Sabha, it is highly likely that Dhanraj will pursue that position without facing any opposition. Perhaps during that time, he might meet the criteria for being considered under WP:NPOL.
    • ધનરાજ નથવાણી સાથે મુલાકાત Citation No:10 (Offline Source date:29 Sep 2019) - English Translation of the Title: Interview with Dhanraj Nathwani. WP:INTERVIEWS and WP:CHURN

In addition to the aforementioned citations, the other offline citations in the local language are essentially WP:INTERVIEWS and WP:CHURN. They fail to meet the criteria for Wikipedia Notability in every aspect. If anyone requests it, I can compile a list of few of these citations and share it here for others to consider. Charlie (talk) 13:54, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist to respond to new source analysis by those advocating Keep.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:56, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@CGGCA201: Which other offline citations are you referring to? Are they newspapers/magazines without an internet presence? Which Notability criteria for citations are you referring to? Here, since the discussion is about notability of Dhanraj Parimal Nathwani, are you saying that there are no credible sources, not only in the article, but otherwise, that have substantive coverage of the person? Jay 💬 09:06, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Jay The offline citations I mentioned earlier can be found at Nathwani's official website, where they were listed. As an Indian, I can easily recognize that a significant portion of the news articles, due to the strong similarities between Hindi and Gujarati texts, are predominantly WP:CHURN and WP:INTERVIEWS. Charlie (talk) 03:01, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The media coverage snippets at his official website are not relevant to this AfD. It is not clear if you are suggesting if the subject does not satisfy GNG. Jay 💬 06:20, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I apologise for any lack of clarity in my previous communication. The reason for nominating this page is primarily due to the subject's inability to meet the necessary GNG criteria, both in terms of online citations and offline references. Charlie (talk) 11:42, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Leaning towards keeping this article because of the availability of offline sources because of his administrative positions. He holds the administrator positions of two important sports associations. Because of this there must be offline sources available other than the ones already in the article. I'm adding some other online sources giving him good coverage to meet GNG. [3], [4]. Also it is only the assumption of the nominator that some of the offline sources are WP:CHURN by just looking at the title. It is true that many of the articles will be in the form of interviews. But most of them are not completely interviews; indeed gives in-depth coverage about who the person is what is their career about etc. Moreover the offline sources are from some of the most reputed publications in the country. 117.254.34.1 (talk) 05:12, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I Looked at all the refs and it passes basic. Desertarun (talk) 09:37, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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