Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ellsworth Jones

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Spartaz ^Humbug! 18:05, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ellsworth Jones (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

small-town mayor, fails WP:POLITICIAN, also served in World War 2 but doesn't meet WP:SOLDIER, all sources are from the local newspaper (which to be clear is NOT significant coverage in multiple sources). Rusf10 (talk) 23:53, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. ^{Babymissfortune} 03:29, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. ^{Babymissfortune} 03:29, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. ^{Babymissfortune} 03:29, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Non-notable local politician who fails to meet political notability guidelines or general notability guidelines. Very minimal reliable source coverage. PohranicniStraze (talk) 21:07, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Being a Mayor is very notable in itself. Plus, less than 0.0001% of the world ever achieve this. I hope the administrators can see past the bias (conscious or subconscious) that appears in many "delete" comments about politicians on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiLuke1980 (talk • contribs) 22:31, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

All mayors certainly are not notable, that's why we have WP:POLITICIAN guidelines.--Rusf10 (talk) 22:40, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As Rusf10 said, mayors are not automatically notable. Per notability guidelines for politicians: Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability, although such people can still be notable if they meet the primary notability criterion of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject of the article". There are certainly exceptions; mayors of major cities like NYC, Tokyo, or London almost certainly meet notability requirements, but from WP:POLOUTCOMES: Mayors of smaller towns, however, are generally deemed not notable just for being mayors. PohranicniStraze (talk) 00:18, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notability of a mayor is irrelevant for a deletion forum, since notability is never a policy-based determinant for deletion of a mayor, see [[WP:IGNORINGATD}].  Note also that WP:N is a guideline, not a policy.  Unscintillating (talk) 17:09, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hate to tell you but WP:IGNORINGATD is part of an essay which is neither a policy nor a guideline. If notability is irrelevant for a mayor, I guess that's the case for everything else too, deleting anything must be against policy.--Rusf10 (talk) 17:16, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ATD is a policy and WP:IGNORINGATD is "an explanatory supplement to Wikipedia:Deletion policy."  So for starters, the premise here is at least erroneous. 

Even if WP:IGNORINGATD were an essay, the post has shown no elements of WP:IGNORINGATD that do not represent policy, so the "essay" comment is baseless misdirection. 

The post continues with WP:OSE hyperbole that policy based treatment under ATD of mayors is the equivalent of non-policy based treatment of other topics considered under WP:Deletion policy.  The topic here is a mayor, not OSE topics outside the scope of ATD. 

As for the hyperbole, as stated at hyperbole, "Hyperbole may...be used for...exaggerations for...effect."  "The use of hyperboles generally relays feelings or emotions from the speaker".  Unscintillating (talk) 19:58, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

At the top of WP:AADD (which contains WP:IGNORINGATD) "This page is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community.". If you want to dismiss someone's argument for citing a guideline (the widely accepted WP:N guideline), why don't you hold yourself to the same standard??? You can't cite [[WP:OSE] either, for the same reason. The only policy you actually cited is WP:ATD, which you have a really bizarre interpretation of (ie. nothing can be deleted).--Rusf10 (talk) 21:45, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. I a seeing enough references from reliable sources for a standalone article. There is no ban on using local sourcing. --RAN (talk) 03:04, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to List of mayors of Saratoga Springs, New York, where he already has a listing with significant biographical information. He is a small-town mayor (population 26,000) who has achieved no wider notability. Virtually all of the sourcing is to a single local source, the The Post-Star (with a single item from the even more local Glen Falls Times). IMO he does not meet GNG and does not qualify for a standalone article. --MelanieN (talk) 01:18, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep  I looked at the Glen Falls Times article, and this is exactly the in-depth significant coverage we look for to support GNG.  I also looked at the Post-Star "Outgoing Spa mayor gives parting views" article, and the byline is "Associated Press".  Again, this is in-depth significant material, such as, "Failure to consolidate some of the commissioners' powers into a city manager's office tops Jones' list of disappointments [in ten years] as mayor."  This is all coverage that predates the internet.  The volume and quality of the material here is suitable to a standalone article.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:19, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete the localized coverage is not enough to show notability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 06:11, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
  1. Yusko, Dennis (2007-08-15). "A sign of respect, gratitude - Ellsworth Jones, former Saratoga Springs mayor and war hero, honored". Times Union. Archived from the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.

     The article notes:

  2. Post, Paul (2011-05-17). "One man's life of service: Former Mayor Ellsworth Jones honored as Deceased Veteran of the Month by Saratoga County Board of Supervisors". The Saratogian. Archived from the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.

     The article notes:

  3. Kinney, Jim (2007-01-02). "Five-term city mayor dies at 88". The Saratogian. Archived from the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.

     The article notes:

  4. Crowe II, Kenneth C. (2005-12-08). "Online Hall of Fame cites service in war and peace - Former mayor of Saratoga Springs among first inductees to state Senate's honor roll". Times Union. Archived from the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.

     The article notes:

  5. Williams, Stephen (2011-06-02). "Our Military: Ellsworth Jones, a wounded veteran of World War II, honored at Saratoga County ceremony (with photo gallery)". The Daily Gazette. Archived from the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.

     The article notes:

  6. Crowe II, Kenneth C. (2007-01-03). "Former mayor's service recalled - Ellsworth Jones, a D-Day veteran who championed Saratoga Springs development, dies at 88". Times Union. Archived from the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.

     The article notes:

  7. Yu, Winifred (1989-05-01). "SPA Mayor Insists He's Ordinary. Decades In Office Ends In Retirement". Times Union. Archived from the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.

     The article notes:

  8. Yu, Winifred (1989-04-18). "Mayor Jones Bars Bid For A 6th Term at SPA". Times Union. Archived from the original on 2018-01-16. Retrieved 2018-01-16.

     The article notes:

  There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Ellsworth Jones to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

  Cunard (talk) 07:51, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• The sources listed in the Wikipedia article are:
  1. Ellsworth J. Jones
  2. Ellsworth J. Jones, Sr. The Post Star (Glens Falls, New York) 13 Sep 1971, page 24, accessed December 27, 2017 at https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16039571/ellsworth_j_jones_sr_the_post_star/
  3. Ellsworth J. Jones, The Post Star (Glens Falls, New York) 3 Jan 2007, page 10, accessed December 27 2017 at https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16039634/ellsworth_j_jones_the_post_star/
  4. Ellsworth Jones to Leave Position with Urban Renewal Unit. The Glens Falls Times (Glens Falls, New York) 30, Apr 1969, page 19, accessed December 27, 2017 at https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16040720/
  5. Fiegl, Charles. Ellsworth Jones Dies, The Post-Star (Glens Falls, New York) 3 Jan 2007, page 1, 5, accessed December 27, 2017 at https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16039959/fiegl_charles_ellsworth_jones_dies/ and https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16039983/fiegl_charles_ellsworth_jones_dies/
  6. Branch, Sally. The Gamble That Paid Off, The Post Star (Glens Falls, New York) 27, Mar 2003, page 16, accessed December 27, 2017 at https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16040815/
  7. Outgoing Spa Mayor Gives Parting Views, The Post-Star (Glens Falls, New York) 5 Nov 1989, page 12, accessed December 27, 2017 at https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16040540/outgoing_spa_mayor_gives_parting_views/
  Cunard (talk) 07:51, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Summary of sources:

  The articles were published over the span of decades in the years 1969, 1971, 1989, 2003, 2005, 2007, and 2011.

  The regional newspaper Times Union published multiple sources about Ellsworth Jones' career, death, and legacy. The newspapers The Post-Star, The Daily Gazette, and The Saratogian also provide significant coverage about the subject.

  He passes Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline.

  There is enough material for a standalone article, and a merge of all the content to List of mayors of Saratoga Springs, New York would be undue weight, so I do not support a redirect to List of mayors of Saratoga Springs, New York.

  Cunard (talk) 07:51, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Pinging Smmurphy (talk · contribs), who removed the prod and made substantial contributions to the article.

  Cunard (talk) 07:51, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - I think this subject has received significant coverage in sources independent of the subject and does not violate the notability guideline, any of the other reasons for deletion, or any of the core content policies. Smmurphy^(Talk) 15:23, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Mayor Jones has received significant coverage, which does not violate notability. Scanlan (talk) 23:59, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Cunard has provided sources to demonstrate significant coverage in independent, reliable sources. That clears WP:GNG. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 00:20, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.