Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Emil Kalous

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect‎ to Czechoslovakia at the 1924 Summer Olympics. The self-reverted 6 March 2025 close as No consensus was certainly within Star Mississippi's purview, so I'll explain why I do see a P&G-weighted consensus here.
The relevant guidelines applicable to this AfD are WP:NOLY and WP:NSPORTS2022. They tell us that an individual merely participating in the Olympics does not imply a likelihood of existence of sourcing supporting notability. That means that we cannot even accept the minority view that the subject's participation in the 1924 event likely resulted in SIGCOV, let alone accept that we may retain the article based on the mere assumption those sources exist, without the benefit of seeing them.
This leaves us with WP:GNG, as is often the case. Going over the arguments here, as well as those on Star's Talk page, I see limited support to the claim that WP:NEXIST can be used in lieu of actual sources here. And indeed, JoelleJay, who likely spent more time and effort in her deep dive to find and translate sources in Czech language than the rest of the participants here combined, wasn't able to come up with anything close to satisfying NSPORTS2022 or GNG, despite trying different transliterations of this athlete's name. Kudos to the participants who were honest and unbiased enough to admit that their case for retention is weak at best. Owen× ☎ 14:45, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum following comments at DRV: This AfD wasn't easy to close, and my Redirect outcome was chosen as a "minimally-invasive" compromise intended be the most agreeable to the majority of participants here, within the purview of P&G. Owen× ☎ 13:06, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Emil Kalous

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Emil Kalous (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:NATH and WP:NOLY. Non-notable athlete with a short career and without achievements.The recent expansion did nothing to prove notability. FromCzech (talk) 08:34, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would be fine if this ended as redirect. Article can be restored if anyone has found archived newspapers containing significant coverage, as BeanieFan11 said. ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 11:14, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Cinder painter (talk) 14:11, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to Czechoslovakia at the 1924 Summer Olympics#Athletics. Per nom, the subject fails WP:NATH and WP:NOLY. This is a non-notable athlete who did not even complete his event at the Olympic Games in which he participated. He does not warrant a standalone article.--DesiMoore (talk) 16:03, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep. In addition to the one source (although a little questionable on reliability), I found a book here talking about a specific marathon that Kalous was a top competitor in. The book mentions Kalous 24 times and also notes that the marathon was covered prominently in the Czech press: "Numerous dailies reported on the marathon – Moravská Orlice, Rovnost, Lidové noviny, and Venkov" – according to the book. I think its very likely that he's notable, especially given the Olympedia bio (which, for foreign athletes like this, they seem to usually only give if they were prominent). The issue is that no Czech newspapers were searched: if they were, I'm think its very likely we'd find significant coverage of him. BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:22, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't understand how this helps meet the WP:NATH and WP:NOLY criteria. The book contains a detailed description of a marathon without international participation, where he finished 3rd, so his name is often repeated, but it does not contribute to expanding his biography. FromCzech (talk) 07:41, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @FromCzech, NATH and NOLY are supplemental guidelines. What's important is WP:N, not NATH, NOLY, NSPORT, NXXXX, etc. If an article has sourcing, there's no need for it to meet a supplemental guideline. --Habst (talk) 13:33, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    As WP:N says,significant coverage in reliable sources creates an assumption, not a guarantee, that a subject merits its own article. Currently, I think sigcov is insufficient or at least on the verge. But the point is that even if we consider them sufficient, they contain nothing that would support the athlete's notability. NATH and NOLY help us objectively determine this notability, and his placements (2nd and 3rd place) in marathons of regional importance do not even come close to that. Imho redirect is the best choice. FromCzech (talk) 13:50, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, this is the discussion I think we should be having.
    Keep in mind we have to apply a time-neutral standard, i.e. we can't favor articles just because they are more recent. The question I ask myself is, if you were someone who followed athletics news in Czechoslovakia in the 1920s, would you consider Emil Kalous notable? I would say yes, based on the sourcing we have about his accomplishments. I do think you are downplaying the importance of the Prague Marathon at the time, because I find the evidence "Numerous dailies reported on the marathon" to be convincing. --Habst (talk) 15:19, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    It is not the athlete's time that is important, but the significance of his sporting achievements. Prague–Brandýs–Prague marathon is not the Prague Marathon, I'm just setting the record straight. This year, 38 marathons are being run in the Czech Republic and the results of many of them will certainly appear in the media, but I still don't expect that placing in the top 3 will justify significance of any of the athletes, even if the media include a biography of the athlete in question. FromCzech (talk) 18:32, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    NSPORT isn't actually objective. It is just a skeletonized guideline of leftover stuff from before NSPORTS2022 that wasn't participation-based. NSPORT is overly strict right now since the participation criteria was removed. For example, saying stuff like "Were selected in the first two rounds of the NBA draft." isn't actually helpful for baseline notability (NBASKETBALL never gets cited at AfD because no one is nominating drafted NBA players for deletion). Every player in NBA history already has an article and was shown to pass GNG but it still wasn't good enough to have the participation criteria reinstated. There hasn't been any discussion on the merits of the leftover NSPORT guidelines. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 15:39, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    If an Olympian meets GNG with SIGCOV, the Olympian should be notable, full stop (except for very rare circumstances like a borderline subject requesting deletion). Whether Kalous meets NATH or NOLY is irrelevant. Furthermore, I think it is significant that the book mentions that marathons were apparently reported on extensively in the Czech press from the time – remember, we haven't searched even a single Czech newspaper! The odds that there would be no further coverage if we looked in Czech newspaper archives is very, very slim I think. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:26, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    We will probably actually find him in the results lists, but the chance that there would be some kind of SIGCOV associated with him and not just a passing mention is only theoretical. Until some SIGCOV is found, we should stick with redirect. FromCzech (talk) 18:36, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    That book is clearly self-published by an amateur author. JoelleJay (talk) 16:46, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I searched "Olympijské"+"Jan Kalous" in all Moravská zemská knihovna holdings from 1918 to 2025 (through my Charles U institutional access) and only got a handful of hits, the most substantial of which was 2.5 sentences announcing that he would be going to the Paris Olympics.Citation:
    Lidové noviny. Brno: Vydavatelské družstvo Lidové strany v Brně, 3.7.1924, 32(331, ranní vydání), s. 8. ISSN 1802-6265. Dostupné také z: https://www.digitalniknihovna.cz/mzk/uuid/uuid:7d503b90-8481-11dc-bf9e-000d606f5dc6
    Other hits included multiple articles mentioning a Jan Kalous football coach who was 41 years old in 1963 ("S Motorletem se vraci na ligovy travnik take 41lety trener Jan Kalous"; so couldn't be our guy):
    Lidová demokracie: orgán Československé strany lidové. Praha: Nakladatelství Lidová demokracie, 08.08.1963, 19(188), s. 4. ISSN 0323-1143. Dostupné také z: https://www.digitalniknihovna.cz/mzk/uuid/uuid:2fc5e140-5ab4-11e7-95d2-005056825209
    Also some namechecks in stats/lists in Malá encyklopedie atletiky ("1. Albin Stenros (Fin) 2:41:22,6 2. Romeo Bertini (Ita) 2:47:19,6 3. Clarence DeMar (USA) 2:48:14,0 Bohumil Honzatko (CSR) neklasifikovan, Jan Kalous a Josef Eberle (CSR) vzdali")
    JIRKA, Jan, Jan POPPER a Josef HEJRA. Malá encyklopedie atletiky. Praha: Olympia, 1990, s. 383. Dostupné také z: https://www.digitalniknihovna.cz/mzk/uuid/uuid:00df6410-f892-11e2-9584-001018b5eb5c
    and Národní listy.
    Národní listy. Praha: Julius Grégr, 17.5.1924, 64(136, večerní vydání), s. 2. ISSN 1214-1240. Dostupné také z: https://www.digitalniknihovna.cz/mzk/uuid/uuid:3a53f42a-435e-11dd-b505-00145e5790ea
    I searched the archives of Lidové noviny for "Jan Kalous" from 1918 to 1940 and just "Kalous" in 1920-25. Besides the Paris announcement in 1924, there's this about an actor by the same name in 1922:
    Lidové noviny. Brno: Vydavatelské družstvo Lidové strany v Brně, 20.10.1922, 30(527, ranní vydání), s. 6. ISSN 1802-6265. Dostupné také z: https://www.digitalniknihovna.cz/mzk/uuid/uuid:b5cfb390-8307-11dc-a02e-000d606f5dc6
    a passing mention in a recap of the Olympics marathon ("But look, they hadn't all caught up yet. After all, there's still Czechoslovakia! Kalous ran, and was not even the last one! Kalous ran quite fresh and didn't seem to be tired of anything. And now the [garbled] were returning. In the lead, Finn Stenroos, the leader, was getting further and further away from his followers."
    Lidové noviny. Brno: Vydavatelské družstvo Lidové strany v Brně, 20.7.1924, 32(361, ranní vydání), s. 4. ISSN 1802-6265. Dostupné také z: https://www.digitalniknihovna.cz/mzk/uuid/uuid:e7457090-8622-11dc-9cf6-000d606f5dc6
    his name in passing a few times in the 1924 Czech marathon routine play-by-play
    Lidové noviny. Brno: Vydavatelské družstvo Lidové strany v Brně, 29.9.1924, 32(489, ranní vydání), s. 4. ISSN 1802-6265. Dostupné také z: https://www.digitalniknihovna.cz/mzk/uuid/uuid:6f5faf30-8ca0-11dc-837e-000d606f5dc6
    this statement at the end of some 1925 race resultsAmong those who gave up were Jan Kalous, last year's winner of this race, who gave up already at the fifth kilometer, and Maly, Slavia, at the 14th kilometer.
    Lidové noviny. Brno: Vydavatelské družstvo Lidové strany v Brně, 1.6.1925, 33(272, odpolední vydání), s. 4. ISSN 1802-6265. Dostupné také z: https://www.digitalniknihovna.cz/mzk/uuid/uuid:7d484630-864b-11dc-8e25-000d606f5dc6
    and a one-sentence notice of a fender-bender involving someone with that name in 1927:
    Lidové noviny. Brno: Vydavatelské družstvo Lidové strany v Brně, 2.6.1927, 35(279, odpolední vydání), s. 2. ISSN 1802-6265. Dostupné také z: https://www.digitalniknihovna.cz/mzk/uuid/uuid:03fccf70-86d8-11dc-a5fa-000d606f5dc6
    Zero hits for "Emil Kalous". JoelleJay (talk) 07:46, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for this good work. Based on the principle of combining the sentences in these sources as WP:BASIC allows for, I think the case for keep is stronger now and may not have to rely on WP:NEXIST. --Habst (talk) 17:59, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Lol, no. Combining a trivial sentence announcing his going to Paris and another trivial sentence from the primary coverage of a marathon does not satisfy BASIC whatsoever. JoelleJay (talk) 20:19, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, it does. Having a solid paragraph on a subject should satisfy SIGCOV, even if combined -- and that's not even including the possibility that future coverage is found. --Habst (talk) 19:32, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Trivial and primary coverage do not count towards notability. A SIGCOV source is also still required for this sportsperson. JoelleJay (talk) 20:11, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, but we can combine sources to constitute SIGCOV, per WP:BASIC"If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability". A sentence here and a few sentences there is usually enough to meet this bar. --Habst (talk) 21:14, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    No. Geschichte (talk) 06:22, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    See User talk:Star_Mississippi#c-Habst-20250308132700-JoelleJay-20250306234400 for more on this. Note that this view was dismissed as "clearly incorrect" to justify a relist, but no explanation was provided. --Habst (talk) 13:31, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @JoelleJay: Maybe he was known as Jan Kalous during that time... ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 11:19, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, and that's one of the names I searched, with and without diacritics, across the major Czech digitized newspapers. JoelleJay (talk) 22:55, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: to get it back on the log, longer note TK
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star Mississippi 21:24, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • First closer note, I had closed this as N/C (long statement here, don't want to clog the discussion). Following a good discussion at User_talk:Star_Mississippi#Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Emil_Kalous I offered to relist in lieu of DRV as I wasn't comfortable closing with a consensus that I still don't see after multiple rereads. I leave this to the next admin to determine how long this should run before a re-close. Star Mississippi 21:28, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment One of our sources already says (translated),"sometimes you'll find his name in an old almanac or brochure mentioning the old days of Hradec Králové athletics". Maybe a Czech Wikipedian can step in here, but it seems in context they're discussing substantive coverage and not name checks so "find his name" may be a mistranslation. So we know that the subject is discussed in almanacs and brochures – why did the above search not turn up any of those high quality hits? Until we find them, we know that this was incomplete and there's still more out there, although I do appreciate what we've found so far through it. --Habst (talk)
  • The name of every athlete who participated in an athletic competition appears in almanacs and brochures. This sentence most likely only points to participation in athletic competitions (possibly only of local importance), but does not suggest the existence of SIGCOV or any notable sporting achievement. FromCzech (talk) 05:48, 9 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
With great respect for your contributions here, I think presence in books and presence of SIGCOV generally correlated, i.e. when a subject is listed many times by people who think his name is worth recording, the chances that a few SIGCOV profile pieces on them exist increases. We know at least a few of the subject's achievements including that he posted top 5000 m and 10,000 m times and if they were prominent on the local scene, it's likely that coverage exists; see for example this comment on a similar AfD. I think there's a good chance something similar exists here. --Habst (talk) 22:24, 9 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Except that, as I did in the comment you cite, I've searched local and national news archives from that time period, except this time nothing beyond passing mentions (including in an almanac) has appeared. Moreover, the local blogger who wrote your quoted sentence presumably has much better access to Hradec Králové newspapers than we do and even he couldn't find enough to support more than a few facts. It should not take an absolutely thorough search of all historical media to demonstrate that a non-NATH-meeting athlete is not exempt from the global consensus requirement of SPORTCRIT. JoelleJay (talk) 23:36, 9 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@JoelleJay, I think there's something being lost in translation with that sentence, the journalist who wrote the quoted sentence was able to write an entire article about him while admitting that there's more out there. What you did in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ismael Mahmoud Ghassab is fantastic and I am very thankful because it shows that despite our best efforts searching, and despite 11 days of work turning up much less than what we've found for Kalous, we ended up with indications that Ghassab was actually very notable in his country.
It should be noted that while Ghassab did not meet NATH at all, Kalous actually does meet NATH on multiple counts for reasons I pointed out above. Kalous was, by all indications, a better marathoner than Ghassab if you adjust for the time period, and yes, that does necessitate a much more thorough search than what's been performed. So if that's what's out there for this relatively slow marathoner in Ghassab, imagine what we could find for Kalous with the appropriate resources. --Habst (talk) 17:43, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Ghassab was only an issue because people were using the wrong transliteration of his name. The blogger who wrote the blog piece on him has almost no info on him beyond the stats. We have zero evidence he meets NATH requirements. JoelleJay (talk) 17:56, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@JoelleJay, with great respect, it's hard to argue that Sport Pod Bílou Věží is a blog because they make use of seven journalists to review content. For more info see this article from a fellow journalist about the news site: Miluje sportovní historii a je hrdý Hradečák. Připomíná staré časy.
We know that Emil Kalous goes by even more names than Ghassab did, so the transliteration problems for Ghassab at least apply in this instance. It's confirmed that he meets NATH because the Prague Marathon is a World Athletics Gold Label race, and Kalous finished second at that event (see prong 2). Ghassab, by comparison, would have not even finished in the top 10 with his marathon PB in the 2:30s at similarly competitive races during his prime. --Habst (talk) 20:44, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Top 5000 m and 10000 m times" is a very vague statement. It is not clear what these times were, where and on what occasion. For notability, this statement is irrelevant. FromCzech (talk) 06:52, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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