Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of unsuccessful attacks related to schools

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. After extended time for discussion, there is a consensus that this material should be kept in some form, with most opinions to that effect being that the article should be kept as it is. Although a move to a different title has been proposed, it was not the focus of the discussion. This might be separately proposed, but I would note that from the text of the article, some attempts failed through sheer luck, and not through the success of an effort to stop the attack. bd2412 T 20:54, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

List of unsuccessful attacks related to schools (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Appears to fail WP:LISTN. I can't find much that discusses unsuccessful school attacks as a group specifically. There doesn't really seem to be much encyclopedic value to this one. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 18:22, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Bakazaka (talk) 18:28, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Bakazaka (talk) 18:28, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Bakazaka (talk) 18:28, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I (apparently - had totally forgotten about it until today!) created this article in 2011 when I split the unmanageably-long List of school-related attacks into component articles (also including List of attacks related to post-secondary schools, List of attacks related to secondary schools, and List of attacks related to primary schools). No real opinion on whether this belongs as an article, just providing some history about how it got here. If it gets deleted, you may wish to consider merging the content back into List of school-related attacks. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 23:20, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom. Foiled attacks generally get transient, routine news coverage and are never heard of again. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:46, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. None of the cases are enough to get their own articles and if one wants information about any of said cases, it's convenient for all of the information about said case and other cases that might interest them to be in one place. KLR (talk) 06:34, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• WP:ITSUSEFUL is not a good argument to make. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:36, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep nevertheless it is useful, as shown by the # of page views. Incidents in list are reliably sourced. Looks to me as though User:Fluffernutter made a useful split an unwieldy list.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:37, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  You're just repeating WP:ITSUSEFUL. And the sourcing isn't the problem (which would be an issue for improvement, not deletion); the problem is that this list doesn't meet WP:LISTN (as far as I've been able to tell; if you can demonstrate otherwise, that would be great, but your comment doesn't do that). –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 19:25, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Specifically, the topic itself is useful, which is why the topic is notable. Unsuccessful school attacks are broadly studied and discussed in an attempt to figure out how to stop these sort of attacks. School attacks are somewhat unusual among mass-violence in that people involved know each other, at least sort of. Key findings are the importance of forming relationships with all students and quick, grounded reaction by staff. As there continue to be more unsuccessful attacks over the coming years I expect the list to grow and perhaps it will lead to new discoveries on what to do. Because a great deal of safety advice is ignored by students, it is important that this article remain on the internet. Descriptions of events that occured in the recent past in my opinion are less likely to be ignored than the safety advice. Maybe someday, Joe Shmoe will read it, infer with his own mind on what to do, and make a difference in the real world.

Additionally, it perpetuates a fallacy to only list the "successful" attacks on WP, as if only the point of view of the attacker matters. These "unsuccessful" attacks perhaps should be renamed List of successfully stopped attacks related to schools--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 01:25, 19 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• User:Deacon Vorbis. There is a literature on the subject. This 2018 piece from Education Week argues that is is an important subject to which more attentin should be paid, Thwarted School Shooting Plans Don't Get Much Attention. Here's How That Affects School Safety Debates. It has links to other articles on the subject. Here: [1] is a search on preventing them, the advice covers the sort of prevention that took place in the incident in the list, alert students and school employees reported weapons caches, threats and so forth to school employees. There is more than enough coverage of this topic in news media and professional literature to create an article on ways to prevent school shootings.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:27, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "There is more than enough coverage ... to create an article on ways to prevent school shootings." That's not the same as this list. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:58, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete WP:NOTNEWS. Trillfendi (talk) 17:25, 18 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

* Merge - Third party sources are given. The information is reliable.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 17:49, 18 February 2019 (UTC)--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 17:49, 18 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Changing to Move per my explanation above.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 23:31, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Puzzled to understand where Epiphyllumlover wants to move this.

• Revisiting, I want to note that we have many articles and lists about violent crimes that did not happen: 2000 millennium attack plots, Category:Failed terrorist attempts in New York City, List of unsuccessful terrorist plots in the United States post-9/11, List of unsuccessful assassinations, List of attempted assassinations of the Sri Lankan Civil War and similar. Not to mention all of the articles about things that never happened in Category:Proposals.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:53, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. This is invalid justification for deletion. Foiled attacks in schools is a legitimate subject, and it has been discussed in sources as a whole (cited here, here, etc.) My very best wishes (talk) 21:42, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.