Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Manwë

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Vala (Middle-earth)#Manwë. Tone 11:38, 29 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Manwë

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Fails GNG/NFICTION. Pure WP:PLOT. Suggest soft delete by redirecting to Vala_(Middle-earth)#Manwë. Deprodded by User:Necrothesp with "the Valar are significant in Tolkien's work" which would be an invalid argument even if we were AfDing Valars, which we are not. This is about an individual one, which like all the others, is not likely to be notable enough for a stand-alone article. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:46, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:46, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or Merge to Vala_(Middle-earth)#Manwë. One of the more significant Valar, which are notable in the works of one of the major authors in the English language -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:55, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fantasy-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 10:55, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. He and Varda are major characters in Tolkien's work. --GwydionM (talk) 13:20, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or merge to Vala (Middle-earth). I thought this would be an easy keep, as Manwë is a major character, but I cannot locate any significant coverage in reliable sources that indicate notability.--Darth Mike^(talk) 19:46, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Darth Mike: There's been plenty published on Manwë, as you suspected, but it's not necessarily accessible without access to the right academic databases. I've added a couple of references. /Julle (talk) 00:58, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Vala_(Middle-earth)#Manwë.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:54, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or Merge to Vala_(Middle-earth)#Manwë. Goustien (talk) 04:19, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect - Notability is not established. TTN (talk) 18:26, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Manwë is significantly discussed in academic works outside of the fictional world, due to his central role in Tolkien's works – it deserves a place to properly explain this, more than what makes sense in a long article about the valar. Manwë is, as Paul Kocher writes in 1980 book on The Silmarillion, a representation of divine will in Tolkien's world. I've added a couple of sources, so that the article can build on academic publishing and not just the fictional work and a wiki. /Julle (talk) 00:47, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- @Julle: I checked and that character doesn't even have a dedicated enty in the Tolkien Encyclopedia. A few mentions in passing are not enough to warrant a separate article. Can you quote a paragraph of analysis about this character (not a paragraph of fictional plot summary with one sentence or so that goes beyond)? He is the last of the two Valar lords not merged, per Template:Ainur. What makes him more notable than the others? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:38, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just a paragraph including any sort of analysis? Sure, I don't have access to my JSTOR login right now that I used yesterday, but here's Rudolf Simek writing about Manwë in "Tolkiens Verwendung der germanischen Mythologie" (2011):

Ebenfalls erst ausserhalb des LOTR findet sich eine weitere Parallele zu Odin im Silmarillion in der Figur des Manwë. Manwë Súlimo ist der höchste und heiligste der Valarî (S 39), der also am ehesten den Asen der nordischen Religion entsprechenden Götterfamilie, wobei Odin häufig als „der höchste und älteste der Asen“ bezeichnet wird (Snorri Sturluson: Edda. Gylfaginning Kap. 19). Manwë ist also schon von seiner Position her mit der Odins zu vergleichen, wobei diese Identifikation von Tolkien in The Book of Lost Tales 2 bestätigt wurde: „Eriol told the fairies of Wôden [Odin], and they identified [him] with Manweg [Manwë].“ (L 2, 295). Daneben haben Odin und Manwë noch die Weisheit gemeinsam, beide besitzen auch als Attribute zwei Vögel, die ihnen Informationen zu-tragen, und beide sind auch Götter der Dichtung, wobei jedoch Tolkien bei Manwë mehr Gewicht auf die Musik legt, während er die Dichtung fast nur nebenbei erwähnt: The Vanyar he loved best of all the Elves, and of him they received song and poetry; for poetry is the delight of Manwë, and the song of words is his music. (S 40) Auch die Verwendung eines Hochsitzes, der den Blick über die ganze Welt erlaubt, und weiters den Bezug zu den Vögeln als Informationsbeschaffer haben die beiden ge-meinsam („For Manwë to whom all birds are dear, and to whom they bring news upon Taniquetil from Middle-earth, had sent forth the race of Eagles, commanding them to dwell in the crags of the North, and to keep watch upon Morgoth”: S 129).

My understanding is that Manwë stands out because of the role he plays in the mythology ("Manwë Súlimo ist der höchste und heiligste der Valarî", the highest and most holy of the valar, related to what Kocher writes about Manwë as the representation of divine will), and makes me, personally, think we're better off with a separate article. /Julle (talk) 12:23, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Fails NFICTION/GNG. Pure PLOT. Necrothesp does not advance a valid AfD argument. Kacper IV (talk) 09:39, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.