Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pititsa hill climb

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Sourcing has been provided, and sources do not need to be in English to count. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 11:19, 22 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pititsa hill climb

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Local sports event, does not meet WP:SPORTSEVENT, very limited news coverage (the only ones found by another editor were both in Greek). Markussep ^Talk 15:05, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as per WP:NOTENG, unless someone shows me that those sources are unreliable. There are several other things out there in Greek as well, that verifiably aren't from forum posts, but they can be hard to find given the different character set. It is also not strictly a local sports event when it is part of a national championship (although I'm aware that this isn't necessarily enough to qualify for SPORTSEVENT on its own) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 16:52, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:36, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:36, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:36, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep-This AFD smacks of American-centric, only what happens in USA matters thinking. Some cite tags would be a nice start, and a request for development. There's not enough info here to know whether this is notable or not. How about give it a chance for development? Paavo273 (talk) 00:14, 13 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Paavo, can you stop making that remark on every AfD I see you on? As it stands, nothing in your vote is policy-based, and it's just an attack on the nominator. Calm down a bit, OK? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:50, 13 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I'm not American, I've never even been in the USA. I started this Afd because this article was written by banned user:Pumpie, who wrote thousands of articles with unsourced and unverifiable content, mainly about niche subjects. I'm not contesting that this event exists, but I have serious questions about its importance. European championship races are not held there, and they weren't in the past. Please read WP:SPORTSEVENT, I don't think this race meets any of the criteria given there. Markussep ^Talk 12:39, 13 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. I may have to take a look through anything left behind by that user, look into the backstory of that user a bit, and see if there are any major problems in their remaining articles. I'd happily improve this one, but I don't trust Google Translate enough to use it for anything other than French, Italian and Spanish sources (ie, those languages that I have at least a modicum a knowledge of) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:41, 13 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Delete as unreferenced and failing WP:GNG. Note that the Greek Wikipedia article it is citing is also unreferenced. Also considering this page (and its Greek counterpart) were both created in 2007 it has had more than ample time for development. It is the responsibility of the article/creator to demonstrate notability, not for us to assume there may be some and let an unreferenced, likely non-notable page exist indefinitely. Ravendrop 09:56, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ravendrop, your vote is utterly against policy. What is going on on the Greek Wikipedia is irrelevant (this page is just a translation). The fact it was created in 2007 and was mostly ignored is irrelevant. It is not the responsibility of the article creator to demonstrate notability per-se, just that someone has to. I've provided sources here, which may well satisfy GNG; you appear to have ignored that completely. Particularly as the article is now not unreferenced, so your vote is invalid. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 10:34, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I guess it's debatable whether the websites Lukeno94 found and added to the article count as reliable sources. http://www.rally.gr is apparently a website that is related to automobile magazine "4 Trochoi", http://www.6thgear.gr appears to be an on-line automobile magazine. So they may count as reliable sources, but I wouldn't call it "front page coverage outside of the local areas involved". They're not national newspapers, and I don't think you'll find coverage in Ta Nea or Kathimerini, to name a few. Quoting from WP:SPORTSEVENT: "A game that is widely considered by independent reliable sources to be notable, outside routine coverage of each game, especially if the game received front page coverage outside of the local areas involved (...) Articles about notable games should have well-sourced prose, not merely a list of stats. Regular season games in professional and college leagues are not inherently notable." "Routine coverage" is further elaborated here: WP:ROUTINE. A quote: "Per Wikipedia policy, routine news coverage of such things as announcements, sports, and tabloid journalism are not sufficient basis for an article. Planned coverage of pre-scheduled events, especially when those involved in the event are also promoting it, is considered to be routine." See for instance the difference with the Acropolis Rally, which does get international coverage. Markussep ^Talk 11:34, 18 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That comment doesn't even remotely fit with policy either. "front page coverage outside of the local areas involved" has never been a requirement for GNG - the coverage can be right in the middle of a 900 page book and if it is significant, that's all that matters. Nor does something have to be from a newspaper - national-level automobile magazines, as these appear to be, are perfectly acceptable. It doesn't matter what those newspapers you list say, and neither does any coverage that the Acropolis Rally gets (that's a completely different form of motorsport anyway...) The coverage is required to be non-routine and significant in independent reliable sources; as far as I can tell, this is satisfied in the sources I found (routine would just be "X won this event", and wouldn't go into any more depth than that). And that wording of SPORTSEVENT is utterly unhelpful when it comes to this sort of event (which isn't your fault, but). Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:12, 18 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If you think the WP:SPORTSEVENT guideline is wrong, maybe you should discuss it there. But for now it's all we have, and it's similar to what is stated at Wikipedia:Notability (events). As far as I understood from the rally.gr article (I don't speak Greek either), it's one of the races of the national (amateur?) championship, organised by a local automobile club. Markussep ^Talk 14:57, 18 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If the article meets GNG, which it appears to do, it doesn't need to meet SPORTSEVENT. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:43, 18 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.