Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Spacesuits in fiction

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. ✗plicit 11:29, 2 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Spacesuits in fiction

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

Spacesuits in fiction (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This is unfortunately, but not unusually, another WP:ORish random list of works featuring spacesuits, with some ORish prose analysis to boot. Referencs are very poor - most examples are unreferenced; the few that are not just primary refs to fictional examples references are about a bigger concepts, like about history of spacesuits (not primarily about fiction); or about real spacewalks; the best source we have is a listicle about "18 space suits from science fiction" [1] (at least The Verge is generally RS, but I am afraid that's too little to save this). My BEFORE is not very helpful (there is a passing mention of the concept in MA here, but that's not SIGCOV and MAs have borderline reliability), although SFE has an entry for Spacesuit Films (but that's a related concept - not identical, however). FYI I also checked, without any hits for this topic, the following reference works: Encyclopedia Of Science Fiction by Don DAmmassa, Historical Dictionary of Science Fiction Literature, The Mammoth Encyclopedia of Science Fiction, Science fact and science fiction: an encyclopedia, and The Visual Encyclopedia of Science Fiction i The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Science Fiction and Fantasy. Pinging User:TompaDompa who has a great track rescuing such content - I'd love to be proven wrong, but so far, I am not seeing sources for that :( Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:20, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete This is an WP:OR essay. Wikipedia articles need to be based on what reliable independent sources have said about a topic, and not the observations of a few editors. I don't see WP:SIGCOV, but even if some is found, there would be nothing reliable to preserve from the original research here. Shooterwalker (talk) 13:48, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Fancruft based on WP:OR. Shankargb (talk) 17:22, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete As correctly observed above, this is an essay based on WP:Original research. As such WP:DELREASON#14 (Any other content not suitable for an encyclopedia) applies—in particular, this violates WP:NOTESSAY. Even if there are sufficient sources for a proper article on this topic, it would be necessary to start over entirely from scratch. In these kinds of circumstances I might say redirect (not merge) to Space suit#In fiction, but when I looked at that section it turned out to be entirely unsourced so I removed it wholesale. On the question of whether there are sufficient sources, I don't know—I haven't checked my usual go-to sources for science fiction topics, but they substantially overlap with the ones listed in the nomination so if Piotrus didn't find anything worth using it's less likely that I would find something that search missed. I do recall reading in various sources (of various quality) about works from the late 1800s or early 1900s that have been claimed to have been the earliest spacesuits in fiction (or among them, at least), but those have mostly been little more than passing mentions. Still, it might be worth covering that angle—the space suit concept being anticipated in fiction way ahead of the first real ones—in the main space suit article, if nothing else. I will also note just for the record that Andrew Liptak [Wikidata], who wrote the above-mentioned article in The Verge, is a reliable source on science fiction topics (having been published in Clarkesworld Magazine and Reactor/Tor.com, among others). I would certainly feel comfortable citing Liptak for WP:Verification of such content (even if published in a lesser-quality source, though perhaps not if WP:Self-published), but the case for a listicle like this counting towards WP:Notability is comparatively weak (and similarly I would not view it as counting for much in terms of WP:Due weight). If somebody finds adequate sources to turn this into a proper article and starts that process during this AfD (similar to what happened at the recent WP:Articles for deletion/List of knitters in literature), please ping me and I'll reevaluate my position on keeping this as a stand-alone article. TompaDompa (talk) 21:46, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @TompaDompa I restored (rewrote from scratch) that section with sources, although I am not seeing how to write up much more about it. But at least it means we have a redirect target. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:46, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep, meets GNG and The Verge source alone shows that the topic is covered by reliable sources. Wikipedia's collection of space fiction is commendable and topic-intensive, and spacesuits are definitely a major topic of space travel. Even after reading the above can see no reason to even think about deleting this page and topic. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:36, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • If you want to understand why editors think this article should not be kept, it might be more helpful to read the article itself. There, you will find things likeThis illustration of the suit appears to be skintight (note the wrinkles) (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),This common early idea for a spacesuit would have not worked in reality for several reasons (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),Very often these artists' creations were absurd, with such errors as a helmet whose neck hole is too narrow for the head to get through. (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),Often fictional spacesuits are drawn with two large backpack cylinders as their only life-support gear, as if the exhaled gas is vented to space as in an ordinary open-circuit scuba set. (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),Following World War II, fictional spacesuits were influenced both by the real life pressure suits and G-suits which had seen use during the war for high-altitude aviation and also by the speculative articles on space travel which were published in magazines (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),Some early space travel fiction films showed characters in spacesuits much more often than Star Trek and afterwards. (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),No provision is made to prevent the suits from ballooning in the vacuum, or to protect the hands from the vacuum. (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),Author Robert A. Heinlein's novel Have Space Suit—Will Travel (1958) drew both on these contemporary articles and on his experience designing pressure suits during World War II and featured a detailed description of a very realistic space suit with constant volume joints and fixed helmet and shoulder yoke, which was entered through a frontal gasketed zipper (similar to that in a drysuit). (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),Front cover illustrations (one shown here, one linked to in its caption) for the novel obviously inspired by contemporary diving apparatus show its life-support backpack as a correctly drawn old-type open-circuit two-cylinder aqualung as used for scuba diving with manifold and large round regulator and A-clamp. (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),The artist avoided the error found in most comic-strip drawings of old-type aqualungs, of drawing each breathing tube coming directly from a cylinder top and no regulator. (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),The spacesuits in these drawings differ much, but all depict the helmet base as being wide enough for the wearer to get it on over his head, showing that their artists had paid little attention to the writer's detailed descriptions. (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),In a description of the spacesuit Heinlein appears to be confused about the various effects of oxygen toxicity and bends and nitrogen narcosis. (improper WP:ANALYSIS of the WP:Primary source itself, here cited),Heinlein's description of pressure regulation came very close to the experience of astronauts in the Apollo program. (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),One major component of modern pressure suit Primary Life Support System backpacks which he missed was the lithium hydroxide canister which absorbs carbon dioxide from the air in the suit: see rebreather. Without this, his suit's breathing apparatus would have to be open circuit and limited to approximately two hours on a filling of oxygen or air, with the time varying according to exertion and cylinder size and his body size. (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),Robert A. Heinlein's novel Starship Troopers (1959) famously featured armored power-assisted spacesuit-like battlesuits used in combat. The suits are arguably one of the first examples of powered armor to be written of in American literature. (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS and improper editorializing),However, the 1997 film's interpretation did not use powered armor, much to the consternation of the book's fans. (unsourced opinion and improper editorializing),After the establishment of NASA, and the first space missions, fictional spacesuits tended to follow real spacesuit design, including such features as a large rectangular backpack to hold life support components, except in low-budget science fiction movies and comics which were still inspired more by imagination than by reality. (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS and rather conspicuous mention of NASA where one might expect the Soviet space program to be at least as relevant),The studio which made the series seems to have had only two alien spacesuit costumes. (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),often the episodes feature a recurring blooper: the astronaut's helmet is accidentally open (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),Sylvester and Happy wears vintage spacesuits, too, but they are probably fictional (like the two characters themselves). (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),The potential for greater mobility and simpler operation with a skintight spacesuit, generally referred to as a space activity suit or mechanical counterpressure suit, make this type of space suit an attractive choice for fiction, where flexibility of use can be a boon to plot development. (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS),The spacesuits in early Buck Rogers comics seem to be skintight. (unsourced WP:ANALYSIS), and much more. Taken all together, it is very obvious that this entire article is the product of copious amounts of WP:Original research, resulting in a blatant WP:NOTESSAY violation. I could understand advocating for redirecting to Space suit#In fiction now that Piotrus has written a short paragraph there—I wouldn't object to that myself—but keeping the current contents of this article is a complete non-starter. I also can't really see what WP:PAGEDECIDE argument there is at present for having a stand-alone article rather than a section in the main space suit article, given the dearth of proper content. TompaDompa (talk) 12:23, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      @TompaDompa: I normally try to stay out of the back and forth, but I just wanted to thank TompaDompa for this sobering analysis. I hope other editors will acknowledge when an article is substantially WP:OR, instead of treating it as just a few sentences that can be edited away. Shooterwalker (talk) 16:25, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    What I read is a page describing spacesuits in the plots and props of various books and films. This is similar to describing a painting or the plot of a book or film, except narrowing in on the spacesuit. What TompaDompa calls original research analysis is simply describing various spacesuits in fiction, exactly what the article title claims to be doing. Editors are free to edit the wording and haven't taken that route, but fallen back on "delete" instead of describe and detail. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:45, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Descriping foo topic in fiction based on primary sources is not encyclopedic. WP:NOTTVTROPES. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:06, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Rubbish.In Andy Weir's 2011 novel The Martian, astronauts from the Ares missions use white spacesuits to walk on Mars' surface. is description (and on its own, not particularly helpful to the reader—it's a bare data point).This common early idea for a spacesuit would have not worked in reality for several reasons, on the other hand, is analysis. No amount of copyediting can change the latter into the former, and since the foundation for the article is the analysis this isn't a problem that can simply be polished away. Even if this were just pure plot description (which again, it isn't), that would still not make for a proper article—for one thing, that would be basing the article on WP:PRIMARY sources in violation of that policy, and for another, it would violate the WP:NOT provisions against summary-only descriptions of works and listings of raw data without context. If you honestly cannot tell the difference between description and analysis in contexts like this, you should probably stay away from fiction-related content on Wikipedia. This kind of content would be perfectly acceptable (even encouraged) at some WP:Alternative outlets such as TV Tropes, but here on Wikipedia we require secondary (or tertiary) sources for all WP:Analysis, evaluation, interpretation, and synthesis, and we require secondary (or tertiary) sources on the overarching topic to demonstrate the relative significance of different WP:ASPECTS. TompaDompa (talk) 06:24, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per TompaDompa. No distinct coverage or indication of notability, and nothing worth preserving at the current article. Magneton Considerer: Pokelego999 (Talk) (Contribs) 17:58, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Spacesuits_in_fiction&oldid=1279766457"
Uses material from the Wikipedia article Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Spacesuits in fiction, released under the CC BY-SA 4.0 license.