Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Student Christian Movement of Canada (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. J04n(talk page) 15:37, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Student Christian Movement of Canada

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Minimal notability asserted, no sourcing found whatsoever, article is full of crap. Was kept in 2008 via a deluge of totally invalid arguments such as WP:ILIKEIT, WP:USEFUL, and WP:PROBLEM, none of which actually addressed notability. The article is still very much unchanged from its 2008 status, and no more notability or sourcing has been uncovered Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 06:58, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. Paul foord (talk) 08:31, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Paul foord (talk) 08:31, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - this is a well-written and informative article that does have many references. Vorbee (talk) 09:18, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Vorbee: "Well written and informative" is not a reason to keep. I could write a well-written and informative article about my cat, and that doesn't make her notable. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 19:00, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

TenPoundHammer can you speak to the sources cited in the article? The books appear to discuss to this subject and aspects of its long history dating to the 1920s. If we determined that it wasn't independently notable wouldn't a merge to the parent organization be the best outcome? FloridaArmy (talk) 23:25, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

When you say "the parent organization", do you mean the World Student Christian Federation?Vorbee (talk) 11:17, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. A broader topic. FloridaArmy (talk) 12:03, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and redirect to World Student Christian Federation#National Student Christian Movements. I'm not seeing enough reliable sources to pass WP:GNG, beyond what's in the article. Just a couple of books and some hits based on thesis papers - but no indepth coverage of the organization in independent sources. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 23:03, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep SCM was a very significant movement. As involved in liberal Christianity, I have little time for it personally, but that is my POV. This is certainly an article that we need. If it has unreliable content, it should be corrected, not deleted. Peterkingiron (talk) 21:43, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep very substantially covered in reliable independent sources such as those cited in the article. The sources discuss its evolution, history and influence. FloridaArmy (talk) 22:13, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You must be seeing something different than I am. Can you show me one reliable source that covers the organization in depth? I'm not sure that a brief mention in a Catholic Register article is enough.[[1]] The current sourcing is quite poor - I just marked a dead link. I can't read the thesis papers but if the group was notable you'd expect to see more media coverage, especially having been around since 1921, according to the Register. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 21:45, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of sources do. here for example the group is discussed in some detail on multiple pages. FloridaArmy (talk) 21:59, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The source in the article you describe as a brief mention says:

"SCM has a large contingent of members of the United Church and the Anglican Church, but there are also many members of Catholics, Mennonites, Coptic Christians and others.

Since the Second Vatican Council published Unitatis Redintegratio (the Decree on Ecumenism) in 1964, ecumenism has grown to become common practice throughout Christian denominations.

Esther Townshend, an Anglican who works as the Toronto coordinator for SCM Canada, said ecumenical work has always felt natural to her.

“I do see it among the clergy and the chaplains who’ve supported SCM over the years,” said Townshend, 26. “They’ve worked hard to promote dialogue and find ways to work across denominational boundaries and that’s made it possible for it to seem so natural to our generation.”

SCM Canada, founded in 1921 as an affiliate of World Student Christian Federation, is a youth-led network that calls together Canadian Christian young people to take action for social justice and activism.

“The social teachings of Jesus that we focus on are things that are found in every wing of the Church for sure,” said Peter Haresnape, who self-identifies as Anglo-Catholic and national coordinator of SCM. “It’s really the idea that the teachings of Jesus should lead us to influence the world in a positive, concrete kind of way. Catholic social teaching is very much aligned with these values.”

Although this is first time SCM’s Toronto delegation is part of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, it is not their first collaboration with the Catholic community.

Faith Connections, a young adult ministry run by Fontbonne Ministries and the Sisters of St. Joseph Toronto, joined forces with SCM last year.

Faith Connections director Vanessa Nicholas-Schmidt said the partnership began with an open mic night in March called “Jesus, Justice and Me.” This Lenten season, they are working to collaborate on another event dedicated to eco-justice.

SCM and Faith Connections also worked together on organizing Alpha Canada programs throughout the Greater Toronto Area. Alpha Canada is a youth ministry program for Christians to share and discuss faith teachings in a fellowship environment."

Is that a brief mention? FloridaArmy (talk) 22:02, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is, since that source is mostly about the parent organization SCM, not the subject of this article. And the Catholic Register, while a nice clean looking web site, isn't nearly as notable as the similarly named National Catholic Register. I did acknowledge the couple of books and thesis papers in my merge vote above, but it's just not enough, especially for a group that's been around so long. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 23:57, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Which part of the quoted portion isn't about SCM Canada? I dont see any mention of the parent organization, just diacussion of SCM Canada, its history, and evolution. FloridaArmy (talk) 00:09, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong. I thought SCM was the parent, and then they shifted to talk about SCM Canada. There's also a Student Christian Movement of Great Britain On this news article we're discussing, which is the best source for notability we together could come up with, the caption doesn't even mention SCM Canada, calling it instead Christian Student Unity Canada. I looked some more and don't see enough coverage. In any case, this article doesn't meet my guidelines for notability. Perhaps a closing admin will disagree. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 02:15, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's not the best source jist one of many. The Eugene Forsey book also gives substantial coverage to the subject. FloridaArmy (talk) 03:30, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 08:57, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I can't read the whole Forsey book but from the Google excerpts I can see, the book confirms he was indeed a member. But since I can't tell how much in depth info there is about the group, I'll refer to WP:INHERITED which essentially says that just because he's member, doesn't make the group notable. What I'd like to see is more independent coverage, where the group is the focus, rather than just being mentioned in a member's biography. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 19:54, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I always want to barf when I see the Wiki used to do God's work.198.58.161.137 (talk) 07:45, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There's no place for this sentiment here. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 19:54, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

.....or for barfing. Carrite (talk) 15:27, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to World Student Christian Federation#National Student Christian Movements; not independently notable. Lacks WP:SIGCOV for a stand-alone article; the exerpt above is from a piece that's based on an interview; therefore, it's not suitable for establishing notability. Mostly unsourced WP:ADVOCACY and not suitable for inclusion in this form. Anything useful (which is not much) can be picked up from the article history. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:09, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's an article that quotes multiple people. FloridaArmy (talk) 02:21, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 22:36, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - SCM was an significant movement. The article needs to get in shape, but AfD is not a clean-up service and the refernces available so far are good.BabbaQ (talk) 22:12, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Meets GNG. A commenter in the 2008 debate (which resoundingly closed KEEP) also mentions the book A Short History of the Student Christian Movement in Canada, by Margaret Beatie. Carrite (talk) 15:21, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, there's a shit-ton of sources for this organization on Newspapers.com when you switch over to Canadian papers. For example, HERE is coverage from the Winnipeg Tribune about the group's 1931 conference, substantial coverage. Easy GNG pass. Carrite (talk) 15:26, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And THIS is substantial coverage from the same paper on the SCM's 1933 campaign in favor of a National Day of Prayer called for by its international governing body. Carrite (talk) 15:31, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Then there's is ANOTHER piece dedicated to covering the group's 1948 annual conference. Carrite (talk) 15:34, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Carrite's sources. feminist (talk) 03:46, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.