Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vem Miller (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Daniel (talk) 20:31, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Vem Miller (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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WP:BLP1E and an overall lack of coverage aside from the Trump event. SirMemeGod  20:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Politicians, and United States of America. SirMemeGod  20:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Nevada-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 20:47, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete — Any insinuation that Miller intended to assassinate Trump is a BLP violation. Miller is not notable enough to warrant an article barring the incident on Saturday, either. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 05:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Security incidents involving Donald Trump#2024 incident at Coachella rally instead? Ss0jse (talk) 13:54, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge discussion can also take place in Talk:Security incidents involving Donald Trump#Cochella suspect. Ss0jse (talk) 14:34, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - This is a WP:BLPCRIME situation, there are signs that it is at most a minor crime and that this will not be of lasting interest. No merge needed; there is sufficient information already in the targeted page. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 14:37, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I do not disagree with deleting the article on Vem Miller, but I would nonetheless like to copy/paste (or move or whatever) Vem Miller#Arrest and Trump rally incident to Security incidents involving Donald Trump#2024 incident at Coachella rally before Vem Miller is deleted. Ss0jse (talk) 14:48, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I do not agree. I think going that deep on this individual because his presence was briefly perceived as a threat even though there does not seem to have been any is a BLP concern. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 14:58, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Thank you for the clarification, NatGertler and Sir MemeGod. Consider this merge discussion closed and this merge proposal rejected. Ss0jse (talk) 15:00, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per WP:BLP1E at this point. And given how it's likely to fade away in terms of his action(s), I think WP:BLPNAME could easily fall on not having his name even with the current amount of coverage including it (which is the status quo in Security incidents involving Donald Trump). Skynxnex (talk) 16:48, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge, meaning largely replace Security incidents involving Donald Trump#2024 incident at Coachella rally with a copyedited version of Vem Miller#Arrest and Trump rally incident. The 200+ words and four sources in that incident section are much better than the ~50 words and two sources (one in Portuguese, with no indication that it complies with the very minimal restrictions in the WP:NONENG policy) in the Trump article. I disagree with Nat Gertler that "there is sufficient information already in the targeted page", as the targeted page currently says nothing about his intentions or that he's a Trump supporter. (Having a supporter of a pro-firearms/pro-concealed carry candidate possessing firearms at a public event is significantly different from having an opponent showing up with malign intent.) I don't care whether his name should remain, though as a recent candidate for statewide political office, he's a public figure (though not presumed notable per WP:NSUBPOL; not all public figures are notable and vice versa). Also see that last line in WP:PUBLICFIGURE: "If the subject has denied such allegations, their denial(s) should be reported too." His denial is another thing that's missing from the targeted page, but present on the BLP. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:53, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. First off, BLP1E doesn’t exactly apply here since this person had a long career in media that predates the Coachella incident. Note that there was a previous BLP discussion in 2020, and several users even back then argued that he was notable on the basis of doing things like creating the TV show Car Lot Rescue (and yes, that is the same Vem Miller). Although the consensus at the time was ultimately in favor of deletion, I would argue that his earlier career and the Trump rally incident, together, are enough to carry him across the threshold of notability even if neither would be sufficient on its own. Moreover, Miller also personally knows and has been photographed with several people close to Trump, making his claim that Trump personally invited him to the rally quite plausible. And yet, at the same time, you also have Trump-supporting politicians like Anna Paulina Luna openly calling him a would-be assassin and using the incident to gin up sympathy for Trump. That's inherently quite interesting, and certainly not the same as it would be if it had just been some rando arrested at a Trump rally with a gun.LonelyBoy2012 (talk) 08:26, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Can I see a single source that shows that he doesn’t fail 1E? It still applies if he hasn’t had any talk around him pre-shooting. SirMemeGod  12:03, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Even if it is the same Vem Miller, more would need to be shown. The article for Car Lot Rescue is in a state that it would not pass a notability check (the one non-press-release reference is a local interest story... which, I will add, does not mention Miller.) The users arguing for keep in the previous nomination include one who had a single edit that wasn't in that AfD discussion (and that was to insert Miller's name into an article) and @Koridas:, an account that was less than a month into their editing at the time (although maintains activity into this month, so I'm pinging them for their input.) -- Nat Gertler (talk) 13:14, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Neutral Neither for nor against, but I agree the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_incidents_involving_Donald_Trump#2024_incident_at_Coachella_rally is poorly written. I am working on adding more information now to that particular location. Armeym (talk) 00:41, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Against Deletion unless arrest content is moved/preserved Unfortunately my attempts to place higher quality info were deleted in the article I referenced above, so now I wrote it here. I feel like if this article is deleted, the improved content should be created as a page named "Arrest of Vem Miller" since at this point 90% of the page is about the arrest as there is so much information to cover. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Armeym (talk • contribs) 02:06, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Your attempts were reverted because you violated WP:BLPCRIME. Your edits to this article also violate WP:BLPPRIMARY. @Armeym please read through WP:BLP if you plan to continue making edits about living people, especially if these edits relate to contentious material and legal issues. Traumnovelle (talk) 21:16, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per WP:BLPCRIME and really only notable for what (so far) appears to be a minor arrest. There is brief mention of the incident at Security incidents involving Donald Trump#2024 incident at Coachella rally which is sufficient. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 02:16, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete article has too many BLP violations to justify keeping the page history. The content isn't very good to begin with; if people wish to add information to the relevant articles they're best off starting from scratch. Traumnovelle (talk) 21:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete falls under WP:BLP1E, consistent WP:BLPCRIME violations; the act which this person did is not notable beyond the few sentences in the section in the Donald Trump-related article. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 21:54, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. If folks want to recreate the entry, they can avoid WP:BLPCRIME by omitting the Coachella arrest and subsequent legal action info until/unless a conviction occurs. — Safety Cap (talk) 02:26, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.