Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yin-yang-style baguazhang

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Liz Read! Talk! 23:27, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yin-yang-style baguazhang

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Yin-yang-style baguazhang (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Lack of notability Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 00:03, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Liz, I'm not sure what there is to think. There are two hyperlinks, both of which are of Chinese text, and the rest are books. It's not clear to me how anyone can easily verify the content, but more importantly, this still seems like a rather small and obscure school of martial arts, and I don't think it warrants its own article. I think the topic should perhaps be redirected to Baguazhang. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 09:41, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
    1. Ai, Hu 艾虎 (2013). "田氏阴阳八卦掌探源及发展" [The Origin and Development of Tian's Yin-Yang Baguazhang]. 中华武术 [Chinese Martial Arts] (in Chinese).

      The article notes: "阴阳八卦掌，明末清初时，早在四川峨嵋山与青城山一带，碧云、静云两位道长所传。由田氏远祖田如銨始习阴阳八卦掌。在反清复明特殊的历史背景，阴阳八卦掌只在田氏族中秘密传承。传承序为鹏、利、富、海、山、回、克、子、金、川。"

      From Google Translate: "Yin-Yang Bagua Palm was passed down by Taoist priests Biyun and Jingyun in the Emei Mountain and Qingcheng Mountain area of ​​Sichuan in the late Ming and early Qing dynasties. Tian Ruquan, the distant ancestor of the Tian family, began to practice Yin-Yang Bagua Palm. In the special historical background of the anti-Qing and restoration of the Ming Dynasty, Yin-Yang Bagua Palm was only secretly passed down in the Tian family. The order of inheritance is Peng, Li, Fu, Hai, Shan, Hui, Ke, Zi, Jin, and Chuan."

      The article notes: "为弘扬中华武术，田迴先生于上世纪60年代将祖传阴阳八卦掌始传外姓，1990年9月田迴所著《阴阳八卦掌·蟒形掌》一书由人民体育出版社出版，并列为中国武术协会审定的《中国武术文库》“拳械部”所属的“拳术类”，后又作为经典，被选录入《中国武术百科全书》和《中国武术拳械录》。"

      From Google Translate: "In order to promote Chinese martial arts, Mr. Tian Hui passed down the ancestral Yin-Yang Baguazhang to foreign surnames in the 1960s. In September 1990, Tian Hui's book "Yin-Yang Baguazhang·Python-Shaped Palm" was published by People's Sports Publishing House and listed as The "Boxing Category" belonging to the "Boxing Department" of the "Chinese Martial Arts Library" approved by the Chinese Wushu Association was later selected as a classic and included in the "Chinese Martial Arts Encyclopedia" and "Chinese Martial Arts Boxing and Weapons Record"." The book from Tian Hui:

    2. 天津通志: 体育志 [Tianjin General History: Sports History] (in Chinese). Tianjin: Tianjin Academy of Social Sciences Press 天津社会科学院出版社. 1994. p. 71. ISBN 978-7-8056-3498-2. Retrieved 2024-12-02 – via Google Books.

      The book notes: "芦忠仁(正文)近年献艺整理出版了《阴阳八盘掌》一书。阴阳八盘掌最显著的特点是,它的走转行动毫不停息,手法腿法步法身法变化多端,姿势时正时斜,时转时翻,时起时伏,并且各个动作组织严密,技法纵横游击,左右盘旋,大有冲锋陷阵威力。演练时,给人以强烈的艺术感和实战感。其器械套路较多,这里 只记“八盘刀”、“八 第一篇传统体育"

      From Google Translate: "In recent years, Lu Zhongren (text) compiled and published the book "Yin Yang Ba Pan Zhang". The most striking feature of Yin Yang Ba Pan Palm is that it moves around without stopping, its hand, leg, footwork and body movements are ever-changing, its postures are upright and diagonal, turning and turning, rising and falling, and each movement is tightly organized. , the technique is vertical and horizontal guerrilla, circling left and right, and has great charging power. During the drill, it gives people a strong sense of art and practicality. There are many equipment routines, here we only remember the "Ba Pan Knife", "Eight Pan Knife" and "Eight Pan Knife". The first traditional sports"

      The book notes: "阴阳八盘掌在清代也称“阴阳八卦掌”。此拳强调“八盘” (指人体的八个部位)的锻炼。因传授的人不同而变得多种多样。但在董海川以后,尹福和程廷华传授是主流。李振清前期弟子萧海波( 1863——1954 ) ,将此拳从民间传入清朝王府。萧的传人芦忠仁在津门潜心钻研,并向下传续了此拳,另有人称“醉鬼张三”的张长祯,与萧交往很密切,对萧述及所学的“内八卦'乾字门'拳法” (即此拳一支)"

      From Google Translate: "Yin-Yang Baguazhang was also called "Yin-Yang Baguazhang" in the Qing Dynasty. This boxing emphasizes the exercise of "eight pans" (referring to the eight parts of the human body). It varies depending on who teaches it. But after Dong Haichuan, Professors Yin Fu and Cheng Tinghua became the mainstream. Xiao Haibo (1863-1954), a former disciple of Li Zhenqing, introduced this boxing from the people to the royal family of the Qing Dynasty. Lu Zhongren, Xiao's descendant, devoted himself to studying in Jinmen and passed on this boxing to the next generation. Zhang Changzhen, also known as "Drunkard Zhang San", had a close relationship with Xiao and told Xiao about the "Nei Bagua" Qianzi he had learned. "Men'quanfa" (that is, this fist)."

    3. Liu, Jun-xiang 刘峻骧 (1996). 东方人体文化 [Oriental Human Body Culture] (in Chinese). Shanghai: Shanghai Literature & Art Publishing House [zh]. pp. 107, 109, 115. ISBN 978-7-5321-1488-7. Retrieved 2024-12-02.

      The book notes: "《阴阳八卦掌》则以蟒形学为首,顺序是按后天八卦图的排列,分别狮形掌、虎形掌、熊形掌、蛇形掌、马形掌、猴形掌、鹏形掌等。但不管哪一派,都讲八方、八位、八掌型。其掌型分别为仰,俯,竖、抱、劈、撩、穿、挑。"

    4. Hao, Xinlian 郝心莲 (1998). 中国武术百科全书 [Encyclopedia of Chinese Martial Arts] (in Chinese). Beijing: Encyclopedia of China Publishing House. p. 518. ISBN 978-7-5000-6087-1. Retrieved 2024-12-02.

      The article notes: "《阴阳八卦掌》《中华武术文库·拳械部·拳术类》之一。田廻著。中国武术协会审定。 1990 年 9 月人民体育出版社出版。全书共分上下两篇, 8 册。上篇总论,主要介绍了阴阳八卦掌的源流、内容、特点、练习步骤、阴阳论等;下篇讲述蟒形掌等一至八掌的掌势套路练法和技击作用。第 1 册蟒形掌,第 2 ~ 8 册依次为狮形掌、虎形掌、熊形掌、蛇形掌、马形掌、猴形掌、鹏形掌。... 它与董海川所传八卦掌不同,实为八卦掌另一流派。该书材料翔实,图文并茂,文字简练,通俗易懂,便于自学,利于查阅。"

      From Google Translate: "The Yin-Yang Bagua Palm is based on the python form, and the order is arranged according to the post-natal Bagua diagram, including lion-shaped palm, tiger-shaped palm, bear-shaped palm, snake-shaped palm, horse-shaped palm, monkey-shaped palm, roc-shaped palm, etc. But no matter which school it is, they all talk about eight directions, eight positions, and eight palm forms. The palm forms are upward, downward, vertical, hugging, chopping, lifting, piercing, and picking."

    5. Ren, Zhicheng 任致诚 (2001). 阴阳八盘掌 [Yin Yang Ba Pan Palm]. Jiaolong Library Ancient Boxing Manual Series 矫龙文库 古拳谱丛书 (in Chinese). Vol. 2. Shanxi: Shanxi Science and Technology Press [zh]. Retrieved 2024-12-02 – via Google Books.
    6. Tian, Keyan 田克延 (2005). "阴阳八卦掌基础套路 八卦阴阳鱼" [Yin-Yang Bagua Palm Basic Routine: Bagua Yin-Yang Fish]. 中华武术 [Chinese Martial Arts] (in Chinese). No. 9. pp. 54–57. Retrieved 2024-12-02 – via CQVIP [zh].
    There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Yin-yang-style baguazhang (simplified Chinese: 阴阳八卦掌; traditional Chinese: 陰陽八卦掌) to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

    Cunard (talk) 11:45, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Those all seem to show that the "Yin Yang Ba Pan Palm" may be notable, the subject of the article doesn't inherit notability just because one of their forms has been mentioned widely. JeffUK 12:59, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Palm" here is a Google Translate error for "zhang", and according to source 2 above, yin-yang baguazhang 八卦掌 seems to be a synonym for yin-yang bapanzhang 八盘掌. ('阴阳八盘掌在清代也称“阴阳八卦掌”'). —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 13:54, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification! JeffUK 14:48, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. It would be nice to get a second opinion on these recently discovered sources.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:53, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • DELETE The Chinese sources appear to be Chinese State revisionist propaganda to support some minor apparatchik's region, which is a very common practice in that country. Using Google translate to generate article topics ? What next ? ChatGPT ? Really !!! Arcot Shankar (talk) 07:24, 15 December 2024 (UTC).[reply]
    • This account was created a little over three hours before participating in this AfD. I used Google Translate to generate the quote translations here as manually translating them would be too time consuming. Google Translate was not used to generate the text of the article. Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 332#RfC: China Daily was closed as (bolding added for emphasis): I consider this to be a good guideline to follow for other state-affiliated sources. The martial art Baguazhang and this style of Baguazhang are not political topics so I consider these sources to be sufficiently reliable. Cunard (talk) 10:18, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • REMARK The issue is not the sources, the issue is of Notability as per the deletion proposer. I'm a martial arts practitioner myself, so it is true that the martial art (Wushu) Baguazhang technique is notable (the final climax fight in Jet Li's The One), all the other so-called "family" variations are just schools of a particular not-notable long dead teacher being cashed in by his children and relatives. In reality they are all variations on the 8 animal techniques. So you have Yin-Baguazhang by Master"A", Yang-Baguazhang by Master "B" and then Yin-Yang Baguazhang by this master. All completely not notable and essentially spam pages to promote a particular school running somewhere. Arcot Shankar (talk) 13:18, 15 December 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Still hoping to get some sort of consensus on the value of the additional sources.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, El Beeblerino if you're not into the whole brevity thing 01:31, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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