Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 November 15

< November 14November 16 >

November 15

Category:New York colonial people

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus per Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_November_16#X_people.--Mike Selinker (talk) 16:52, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename Category:New York colonial people to Category:People of Colonial New York
  • Nominator's rationale the current name implies the people are in some way colonial, but it is actually New York that is colonial, and we should formulate the name to make that clear.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:18, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep as is This is one of a family of categories in Category:American colonial people by state. No rationale is offerred why this one should be made an exception to a long standing pattern. The people were 'colonial'; they were colonists in a new land. Hmains (talk) 03:57, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment further a parent is Category:American colonial people and a grandparent is Category:Colonial people, further giving lie to the nomination. Hmains (talk) 04:06, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - "colonial people" sounds weird. The geographic entity isn't specified. New York City? New York State? Further down in the tree is included: List of colonial governors of New York, which refers to the Province of New York, which in turn includes territory that now is in Delaware. ChemTerm (talk) 15:26, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Category:American colonial people by state has 20 sub-categories, including this one. All of them use the same format: "Foo colonial people". No argument or evidence has been produced that New York is an exceptional case .... so create a group nomination to change them all, or leave them all as they are. Consistency in the titles of set categories helps both readers and editors, and should be maintained unless there are specific grounds for creating an exception. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:40, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This category is for those who recognized the government of New York prior to its independence. To call the people "colonial" is to apply a level of specificitry to the people that does not make sense. The whole naming system is flawed, but that is no reason to postpone action. We should evaluate names on their merit and not insist on mass nominatoions, which take lots of time and energy.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:28, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Mass nominations don't take that much time, but they have many advantages. Firstly, they ensure that we retain consistency in category names, which is a principle so uncontroversial that we have a speedy criterion C2C allowing it to be implemented without the normal discussion process. Secondly, doing this it as one mass nomination ensures that editors interested in these categories don't need to have the same discussion more than once. Thirdly, doing it as a mass nomination ensures that many more editors are notified. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:44, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • The problem is that there are a bunch of categories here, and they each have their own issues. The claim that all 20 American colonial cats are the same ignored the fact that some of the places involved never existed as colonies.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:53, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment One of the parents of this category is Category:People of the former British colonies. So there is already clear precedent for this name.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:45, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment also all the other subcats of Category:People by era in New York (except one that is really a political party cat) use the of form.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:49, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • New Proposal rename to Category:People of British New York. Because of inpresion in name usage some people have felt that somehow Category:People of New Netherlands go here, which they do not. This is for people within a specific entity, the British colony of New York. The new name would follow the examples of Category:People of British India and Category:People of Spanish Texas.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:53, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose renaming. As used, these American "colonial people" categories contain articles about people associated with a geographic location during the colonial era -- a time period. That is a defining characteristic and a useful basis for a historical biography category. I wouldn't want to think about having to categorize articles based on a determination of which foreign power they were loyal to (not a defining characteristic). Also, I don't believe that there ever was a colony called "British New York". --Orlady (talk) 05:45, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Then what was it. We use names to identify places, not neccesarily the names that were used at the time. The issues is what government held control over the lives of the people, what place they were in. It is an act of assering European imperial might to place people in categories for poolicial domains they never recognized. These categories need to be limited to the actual zone of control of the polities in question. Iroqouis who did not recognize the government of New York as their overlord should not be in this category, nor should people who lived under Dutch control be arbitrarily grouped with those who later lived under English control.John Pack Lambert (talk) 06:39, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - These colonial categories aren't about politics or imperial control. The Colonial period is a recognized time period in the history of the United States. The same terminology is used in other regions that were formerly colonies of one or more world powers. In connection with categories like Category:Pre-statehood history of U.S. states, these "colonial people" categories are used for people who were active in a particular U.S. state or region during the time between initial European settlement and U.S. independence. That is a defining characteristic and is an entirely valid basis for a category. The political interpretation that the nominator is trying to apply to these categories is not a defining characteristic, and if these categories are no longer available in their current form, we won't have a valid place to categorize a large number of articles about historical people. --Orlady (talk) 14:16, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment to mix people in British New York with those who lived earlier in New Netherlands as if they were the same place is just historically irresponsible. The fact that we have Category:People of New Netherland shows that we should distinguish these two groups of people have already been acknowledged.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:26, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This category is being used in such an odd way that it includes as one of its subcats Category:People of New Sweden. I have no clue why that is, but I think it illustrates that this is an extremely poorly chosen name, and we need to use a new name that will invoke a clear and concise geographical area.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:05, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment -- we have categories for New Netherlands and New Sweden, presumably both referring to the peiod before British New York. Category:People of Colonial New York would be an appropriate parent for them all, but as a container with Category:People of British New York as a new subcategory, inot which many of the articles should be moved. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:30, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Given the conflicts between -- and the complexity of changes of boundaries and jurisdictions between -- the Dutch, Swedish, and British in New York in the 17th century, political jurisdictions are not defining characteristics for all of the notable people who were in the region during the colonial period. --Orlady (talk) 16:44, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment People seem to be missing the fact that New Sweden included parts of modern Delaware, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey. It did not at all correspond to New York. It thus seems just plain wrong to place it under the New York category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:25, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • To the contrary, I think people may be missing the fact that this category is used for articles about people who were active in New York (as that place is defined now) when it was under colonial control (by one or another colonial power). The category's geographic scope is not defined by political control, but by physical location. --Orlady (talk) 05:47, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Indian law

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering (talk) 22:16, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose renaming Category:Indian law to Category:Law in India
Nominator's rationale: Rename. Current name is ambiguous. Use style as proposed for the two Chinas below. ChemTerm (talk) 22:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support "Indian law" is highly ambiguous in North America, considering the way that Amerindians are called "Indian", and that India the country does not contain all the traditional countries of the past that are considered Indian -- 70.24.250.26 (talk) 08:32, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Furthermore, I would support renaming all the country categories at Category:Law by country in the same fashion (e.g., Category:Finnish law to Category:Law in Finland). As I see it, law is associated with a political jurisdiction and not with a national identity, so the category name should identify the jurisdiction. However, that kind of change requires a broader discussion. --Orlady (talk) 06:00, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, please. ChemTerm (talk) 18:41, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • I also agree that we should have a wider discussion on renaming all such categories to a new common format which a) avoids ambiguities; b) identifies jurisdiction rather than nationality; c) can accommodate those areas which there are multiple sets of laws (e.g. European countries have both the law of their own state and European Union law, and some such as Ireland also incorporate some of the law of predecessor states and former colonial powers). A wider to discussion is needed on how to adopt a consistent naming format which can accommodate all the various permutations. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:15, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per nom.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:22, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for now, without prejudice to a further renaming. This nomination is based on a well-founded rationale, and removing the huge ambiguity here should be done without delay. However, as noted above, we need a wider discussion, so my support for this proposal is without prejudice to a further renaming to a new global format. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:16, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Law in China

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge Category:Law of China to Category:Chinese law, and Category:Law of the Republic of China to Category:Taiwanese law. I will include a hatnote so there's no confusion.--Mike Selinker (talk) 16:57, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose renaming Category:Law of the People's Republic of China Category:Law of China to Category:Law in the People's Republic of China
  • Propose renaming Category:Law of the Republic of China to Category:Law in the Republic of China
Nominator's rationale: Rename. As pointed out to me in a previous nomination on November 13, we do not want to use the short name China for PRC, because the long name serves as an important historical division. The RoC category name is also still required because it contains categories for pre-1949 as well as Category:Taiwanese law. Although most of Category:Law by country would use the pattern "Category:Chinese law", this would be ambiguous, and is already used for the pan-historical parent category. In such cases, "Law in" is more common than "Law of", e.g. Category:Law in the Republic of Ireland, so that is the only change recommended in this proposal. – Fayenatic London 21:23, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Fossil fuel power stations

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: No consensus - jc37 11:43, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: As we have the full coverage of power station categories by energy source (e.g. category:Coal-fired power stations etc) this category is unnecessary as additional level between Category:Power stations and energy source specific categories. The category was originally created by blocked user:Mac who run anti fossil and nuclear fuel and pro-renewable fuel campaign in Wikipedia and it was to used to oppose the type of energy. This category was discussed in May 2010 and then the nomination was withdrawn after arguments that "this is a useful container category" and "a common umbrella for all burner plants". However, this is unnecessary container category as we have more specific categories and we don't have that kind of additional level for renewable and nuclear power stations. This is also not the common category for all burner power stations as biomass and peat combustion power stations which use the same technology does not belong here. However, if kept, we should create the similar categories for all countries as at the moment the country specific categories are available only for five countries. Beagel (talk) 20:49, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. "Fossil fuels" is a well-defined widely used umbrella term for coal, petroleum, natural gas, and related fuels; it is not political rhetoric as the nominator apparently suggests. It is very sensible and useful to maintain these "fossil fuel power stations by country" categories as container categories. The fact that other countries don't yet have articles for their fossil-fueled power stations does not justify dismantling a useful category structure. --Orlady (talk) 05:54, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Could you please explain what is the useful value of this container category while we have already more specific categories, such as category:Coal-fired power stations, category:Natural gas-fired power stations, category:Oil-fired power stations, and category:oil shale-fired power stations? Beside of statements that this is useful container category there have been no arguments (except argument by user:Hmains that this is useful for navigation for fossil fuel topics) how this category is useful. Without this explanation by my understanding this is unnecessary step between category:Power stations by type and fuel-specific categories. The statement that "other countries don't yet have articles for their fossil-fueled power stations" is incorrect. Most of countries have country specific categories for coal, natural gas or oil fueled power stations but only these five countries have this container category (e.g. please see Category:Power stations in Russia or Category:Power stations in Vietnam). Beagel (talk) 16:12, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Answer. Sorry to say, but saying that power stations categories are not developed systematically is not true. There are still areas in the field of energy-related categories where more systematic work is needed (and appreciated) but this does not apply power power sttaion categories and saying that power station category hierarchies have long been a hodge-podge is a baseless exaggeration. I don't think that any of these editors who has done systematic work with these categories will agree with your evaluation. The hierarchy is that under category:Power stations we have both category trees—by country (category:Power stations by country → category:Power stations in foo → power stations by type in foo) and by type (including country-specific subcategories). I see some logic for fossil and renewable fuel power station categories but it still seems unnecessary extra stage. However, if the consensus will be to keep the fossil and renewable power stations categories, I hope you will take a part of creating these additional categories for all 147 Power stations in foo categories. Beagel (talk) 00:14, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The power station categories are, for the most part, reasonably well-developed. I know you've done a lot of the work in those areas, Beagel. It's the interconnections -- particularly with topics like "Renewable energy" -- that aren't so well developed. Also, I discovered that categories like Category:Oil-fired power stations by country had not yet been added to categories like Category:Fossil fuel power stations by country. I did work on several global and country-specific categories -- not just with fossil fuel power stations, but also with renewable energy power stations and various other energy categories -- to get a better understanding of the situation and to demonstrate what could be done. Obviously, there is more work to be done, but it seems premature to build out the entire category structure when some of the key categories are being actively considered for deletion and/or upmerging. --Orlady (talk) 00:44, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • And I've added extensively to the category tree. About 25 countries are now reasonably well in conformance with a structure that places "Fossil fuels", "Renewable energy", "Electric power", "Energy infrastructure", "Energy companies", and "Nuclear energy" (and sometimes a couple of other topics) at the top level under "Energy in country". --Orlady (talk) 23:32, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:International awards of Czech music or musicians

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge. Timrollpickering (talk) 22:18, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose merging Category:International awards of Czech music or musicians to Category:Czech music
Nominator's rationale: Merge. Only contains one page which is a list. – Fayenatic London 20:03, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Dutch East Indies people

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering (talk) 22:19, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:French Polynesian people

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: No consensus to rename - jc37 11:45, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Tax evaders

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering (talk) 22:21, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: To be more in line with the categories inclusion criteria: "People who have been convicted of tax evasion,". Armbrust The Homonculus 10:23, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_November_15&oldid=1138397097"
Uses material from the Wikipedia article Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 November 15, released under the CC BY-SA 4.0 license.