Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 July 9

July 9

Catholicism by country

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: keep. ℯ xplicit 23:31, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Propose merging Category:Catholicism in Argentina to Category:Catholic Church in Argentina
Propose merging Category:Catholicism in Brazil to Category:Catholic Church in Brazil
Propose merging Category:Catholicism in Costa Rica to Category:Catholic Church in Costa Rica
Propose merging Category:Catholicism in Iran to Category:Catholic Church in Iran
Propose merging Category:Catholicism in Iraq to Category:Catholic Church in Iraq
Propose merging Category:Catholicism in Italy to Category:Catholic Church in Italy
Propose merging Category:Catholicism in Jordan to Category:Catholic Church in Jordan
Propose merging Category:Catholicism in Lebanon to Category:Catholic Church in Lebanon
Propose merging Category:Catholicism in Mexico to Category:Catholic Church in Mexico
Propose merging Category:Catholicism in Slovenia to Category:Catholic Church in Slovenia
Propose merging Category:Catholicism in Spain to Category:Catholic Church in Spain
Propose merging Category:Catholicism in Sudan to Category:Catholic Church in Sudan
Propose merging Category:Catholicism in Syria to Category:Catholic Church in Syria
Propose merging Category:Catholicism in Uruguay to Category:Catholic Church in Uruguay

Nominator's rationale: Redundant; Catholicism in Italy directs to Catholic Church in Italy, just as Catholicism redirects to Catholic Church. Chicbyaccident (talk) 22:22, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: These were recently declined as speedy nominations, see below. – Fayenatic London 22:33, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Copy of Speedy discussion

Category:Catholicism in Italy to Category:Catholic Church in Italy – Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:44, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose all these (Catholicism in XXXX). In each case the proposed rename is to an existing subcategory, which is bizarre. Moreover Catholicism (term) redirects to Catholicity so an alternative rename with equal weight would be to Category:Catholicity in Italy. Oculi (talk) 22:19, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Arguably, the most bizarre thing is the duplicated categories. Chicbyaccident (talk) 10:48, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Catholicism in Brazil to Category:Catholic Church in Brazil – Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:44, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism in Costa Rica to Category:Catholic Church in Costa Rica – Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:44, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism in Uruguay to Category:Catholic Church in Uruguay – Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:44, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism in Argentina to Category:Catholic Church in Argentina – Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:42, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism in Spain to Category:Catholic Church in Spain – Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:40, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism in Jordan to Category:Catholic Church in Jordan – Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:39, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism in Lebanon to Category:Catholic Church in Lebanon – Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:38, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism in Syria to Category:Catholic Church in Syria - Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:37, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism in Turkey to Category:Catholic Church in Turkey – Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:37, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism in Sudan to Category:Catholic Church in Sudan – Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:37, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism in Slovenia to Category:Catholic Church in Slovenia – Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:36, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism in Eritrea to Category:Catholic Church in Eritrea – Per below. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:35, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism in Ethiopia to Category:Catholic Church in Ethiopia – WP:C2B; Category:Catholic Church. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:35, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism in Kosovo to Category:Catholic Church in Kosovo – WP:C2B; Category:Catholic Church. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:34, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism in Iraq to Category:Catholic Church in Iraq – WP:C2B; Category:Catholic Church. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:33, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism in Iran to Category:Catholic Church in Iran – WP:C2B; Category:Catholic Church. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:32, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism in Mexico to Category:Catholic Church in Mexico – WP:C2B; Category:Catholic Church. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:32, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose above as proposed "Catholicism" redirects to Catholicity. Also (1) Category:Catholicism by country was until recently a subcategory of Category:Catholicism and (2) many of the categories contain Eastern Catholicism-related subcategories. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 06:24, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Catholicism redirects to Catholic Church. Chicbyaccident (talk) 10:49, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, for example Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church shows the need for an extra category layer. Also an article like Catholic Party (Belgium) is correctly placed in Category:Catholicism in Belgium and not in Category:Catholic Church in Belgium. Which makes me wonder why only a subset of countries has been nominated, because Belgium is not in the list of nominated categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:18, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Objection. Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church is an example of what should be categorised in Category:Independent Catholicism in Brazil, per WP:CONSENSUS of its classification in its infobox and article content, as well as that of the category tree. As for Belgium, the asserted difference between Catholicism and Catholic Church doesn't match the article realm. I'm afraid your reasoning seems to create a problem that simple isn't there. Although the Catholic Party (Belgium) is indeed not part of the organisation, its name does indeed refer to the Catholic Church and hardly things vague enough to merit its own category. Chicbyaccident (talk) 09:25, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is just nonsense. Category:Independent Catholicism in Brazil (if created) would be a subcat of Category:Catholicism in Brazil. Oculi (talk) 10:05, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please see List_of_Christian_denominations#Catholic_Church (and keep in mind that Catholicism redirects to Catholic Church). If ordering Anglo-Catholicism and Independent Catholicism under Catholicism - ergo Catholic Church - would that make the category tree reflect WP:CONSENSUS in the article realm to you? Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:55, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The section headers of this article are inconsistent (and thus the section content also is), in line with Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy there should be a section Catholicism instead of Catholic Church. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:33, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

With all the possible civility, the above statement ordering Anglo-Catholicism and Independent Catholicism under Catholicism - ergo Catholic Church makes no sense. In no context whatsoever can Independent Catholics, Old Catholics or Anglo-Catholics be made a part of the Catholic Church. I am personnaly not bothered by the fact that Catholicism and Catholic Church are treated in the same article, but these terms are not synonymous. Treating them as identical in the organisation or categories can only create confusion. Place Clichy (talk) 12:33, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - we have Catholicism (term) (which redirects to Catholicity), we have Category:Catholicism and Category:Catholicism by country. Chicbyaccident has been very active for some years trying to identify Catholicism with the (Roman) Catholic Church (via devious edits such as this one and campaigns at cfd). Catholicism is more general than the Catholic Church, and the category system should reflect this in every country. Category:Catholicism in Mexico is (correctly) a parent category to Category:Catholic Church in Mexico and should remain so. Oculi (talk) 09:35, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Catholicism by country contains a whole lot of articles which precisely pertains to Catholic Church, and thus arguably Category:Catholic Church. While at it, I'm still trying to see the WP:NPOV and W:GLOBAL of the 19th century English Oxford Movement "Anglo-Catholicism equals Catholicism" point of view, especially considering that Catholicism redirects to Catholic Church. Chicbyaccident (talk) 14:09, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it does, as it contains (correctly) Category:Catholic Church by country. Catholicism should not IMO redirect to Catholic Church as it is not NPOV. You will note that Catholicity begins "(not to be confused with Catholic Church) ... Catholicity, or catholicism". You are missing the point: some catholicity/catholicism is nothing to do with the Catholic church, so you cannot merge catholicism cats to catholic church ones. A rename to 'Catholicity in foo' would be fine, indeed speediable. Oculi (talk) 17:40, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Oculi: Catholicism redirect to Catholic Church, so WP:CONSENSUS seems to not get your point. Do you have any stronger arguments than WP:IDONTLIKEIT? I could support "Catholicity in X" as a secondary best option. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:53, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would oppose a rename from catholicism to catholicity. Catholicity is a term used by other denominations than the Catholic Church (e.g. Orthodox and Anglican) to indicate that they are also catholic in a sense. Catholicism on the other hand is a form of Christianity within which the Catholic Church is far the biggest church. But although the biggest, 1) it is not the only church within Catholicism and 2) there is also Catholicism outside church organization. Again a completely different example of the latter is Catholic Art Association. Btw there are also Category:Protestantism, Category:Anglicanism and Category:Eastern Orthodoxy for similar reasons. Category:Catholicism relates to Category:Catholic Church the same way as Category:Anglicanism relates to Category:Church of England. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:45, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Marcocapelle: Where do you find support for the 1 and 2 assertions in the article realm, please? Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:53, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've already given a number of example articles that don't fit in the tree of Catholic Church. As you may expect, I strongly disagree that Catholic Party (Belgium) should be categorized in the tree of Catholic Church, the political party is not part of the ecclesiastical organization. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:29, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I fully agree with here: using Catholicity in category names would be a very, very bad idea. Place Clichy (talk) 12:33, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose because Catholicism is more than an institution. — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs) 03:55, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Catholicism is Catholic Church by WP:PRIMARYTOPIC redirect. Feel free to argue that the category tree should deviate, but please apply argments. Chicbyaccident (talk) 07:59, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Catholicism (term) redirects to Catholicity. A consensus on wikipedia does not overrule the truth, which is that Catholicism is not synonymous with the (Roman) Catholic Church. Oculi (talk) 09:32, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We aren't discussing "Category:Catholicism (term) in X", are we? WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is determined by an overview of available sources, isn't? So how can a circle argument omitting that be valid here? Chicbyaccident (talk) 09:43, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The argument is encapsulated at WP:C2D: " If the page names are controversial or ambiguous in any way, then this criterion does not apply, even if an article is the primary topic of its name." The names here are both controversial and ambiguous. Oculi (talk) 12:00, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Catholicism is more than the Roman Catholic Church (or any particular Catholic Church, for that matter). Redirects pointing to one of several Catholic churches may show a primary meaning but categories need to also be unambiguous. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:55, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The two terms / categories are not synonymous. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:07, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Reverse Merge. It is the Catholic Church categories that are redundant. Catholicism is a larger concept category than the Catholic Church. I believe that by country Catholic categories shoudl be better organized by having a mother Catholicism in XXX category, subdivised e.g. in Roman Catholic... and Eastern Catholic... subcategories, among others. Place Clichy (talk) 12:33, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A reverse merge isn't a good idea either. This is like the difference between a movement and an organization within that movement, both can have their own category. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:25, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Churches by dedication

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 09:36, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting Category:Churches by dedication (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Church dedicated to Our Lady of the Rosary (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Our Lady of the Rosary Cathedral (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Churches dedicated to Holy Wisdom (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Holy Wisdom churches (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Churches dedicated to Mark the Evangelist (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Over-categorisation by shared name, see WP:SHAREDNAME. The main category was previously deleted in 2012, see Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_July_2#Category:Churches_by_dedication, but as that was six years ago I am listing it for fresh discussion rather than speedily deleting it under WP:CSD#G4 as a re-creation. Lists or disambiguation pages may be useful instead of these categories, and Cathedral of Our Lady of the Rosary, List of churches dedicated to Holy Wisdom and St. Mark's Church already exist. – Fayenatic London 21:42, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Doesn't WP:OVERCAT. But merge Category:Holy Wisdom churches with Category:Churches dedicated to Holy Wisdom. Chicbyaccident (talk) 22:23, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- The SHAREDNAME policy section gives "Churches named for St. Dunstan" as an example of what has been deleted by strong consensus as WP:OVERCAT. – Fayenatic London 23:38, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:25, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. There are similar categories in other languages. There should be same outlook across all languages. A comparison was made in earlier discussion with surnames, which is definitely far removed from this subject. In matter of faith, it helps if a person is interested in a particular saint or deity across the world. Particularly so if the person is travelling. Jazze7 (talk) 09:29, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is irrelevant what happens in other languages. Maybe they don't have WP:SHAREDNAME or maybe they don't maintain it, who knows. Wikipedia is not a travelling guide anyway. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:49, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Oculi (talk) 21:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete a variation on Category:Eponymous churches which is very similar to Category:Eponymous cities, deleted here long ago. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:56, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:11, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete -- This is a classic case of where a category is not allowed: WP:SHAREDNAME. WP deals with this issue with a dab-page. If there are any where there is no dab-page, the category should be listified. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:29, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Ohio road disambiguation pages

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 09:37, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting Category:Ohio road disambiguation pages (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Utah road disambiguation pages (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (added 10 July)

Nominator's rationale: Per previous discussions (e.g. re chemistry dab pages). Note: We generally don't put category tags directly on dab pages. The talk pages are in Category:Disambig-Class Ohio road transport articles. DexDor^(talk) 20:44, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: the member pages are all already in the parent category Category:Road disambiguation pages, so no merge would be necessary. Moreover, merging to the other parent Category:State highways in Ohio would actually be unhelpful for navigation, as some of the page names do not include "disambiguation". These categories should therefore either be deleted or kept as they are, but not merged. – Fayenatic London 06:58, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom; while certain disambiguation pages ought to be categorized, we don't need an entire tree mirroring the category tree with disambiguation pages about every conceivable category. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:58, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Palestinian territories

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: rename 2013 categories and later years; rename categories where there is no date-specific pages for 1982 to 2012, including burials, ethnic groups & youth; do not rename/merge others that do hold date-specific content for those years, but split them to new parent categories at the proposed target category names, to be consistent with other country categories. – Fayenatic London 23:12, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:1994 crimes in the Palestinian territories to Category:1994 crimes in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:1995 crimes in the Palestinian territories to Category:1995 crimes in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:2002 crimes in the Palestinian territories to Category:2002 crimes in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:2006 crimes in the Palestinian territories to Category:2006 crimes in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:2007 crimes in the Palestinian territories to Category:2007 crimes in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:2009 crimes in the Palestinian territories to Category:2009 crimes in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:2010 crimes in the Palestinian territories to Category:2010 crimes in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:2011 crimes in the Palestinian territories to Category:2011 crimes in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:2013 crimes in the Palestinian territories to Category:2013 crimes in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:2014 crimes in the Palestinian territories to Category:2014 crimes in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:2015 crimes in the Palestinian territories to Category:2015 crimes in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:2016 crimes in the Palestinian territories to Category:2016 crimes in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:Armenian diaspora in the Palestinian territories to Category:Armenian diaspora in the State of Palestine‎
Propose renaming Category:Bedouins in the Palestinian territories‎ to Category:Bedouins in the ‎State of Palestine‎
Propose renaming Category:Burials in the Palestinian territories‎ to Category:Burials in the State of Palestine‎

more nominated categories

Propose renaming Category:Crime in the Palestinian territories by year to Category:Crime in the State of Palestine by year‎
Propose renaming Category:Crime in the Palestinian territories‎ to Category:Crime in the State of Palestine‎
Propose renaming Category:Death in the Palestinian territories to Category:Death in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:Deaths by firearm in the Palestinian territories to Category:Deaths by firearm in the State of Palestine‎
Propose renaming Category:Deaths by stabbing in the Palestinian territories to Category:Deaths by stabbing in the State of Palestine‎
Propose renaming Category:Deaths from cancer in the Palestinian territories to Category:Deaths from cancer in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:Deaths in the Palestinian territories‎ to Category:Deaths in the State of Palestine‎
Propose renaming Category:Disease-related deaths in the Palestinian territories‎ to Category:Disease-related deaths in the State of Palestine‎
Propose merging Category:Ethnic groups in the Palestinian territories‎ to Category:Ethnic groups in the State of Palestine‎
Propose renaming Category:Kidnapping in the Palestinian territories‎ to Category:Kidnapping in the State of Palestine‎
Propose renaming Category:Kidnappings in the Palestinian territories to Category:Kidnappings in the State of Palestine
Propose merging Category:Law enforcement in the Palestinian National Authority‎ to Category:Law enforcement in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:Massacres in the Palestinian territories‎ to Category:Massacres in the State of Palestine‎
Propose renaming Category:People murdered in the Palestinian territories‎ to Category:People murdered in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:Political violence in the Palestinian territories‎ to Category:Political violence in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:Prisoners and detainees of the Palestinian National Authority to Category:Prisoners and detainees of the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:Romani in the Palestinian territories to Category:Romani in the State of Palestine‎
Propose renaming Category:Suicides in the Palestinian territories‎ to Category:Suicides in the State of Palestine
Propose renaming Category:Terrorism deaths in the Palestinian territories to Category:Terrorism deaths in the State of Palestine‎
Propose renaming Category:Terrorism in the Palestinian territories‎ to Category:Terrorism in the State of Palestine‎
Propose renaming Category:Terrorist incidents in the Palestinian territories‎ to Category:Terrorist incidents in the State of Palestine‎ (over redirect)
Propose renaming Category:Youth in the Palestinian territories‎ to Category:Youth in the State of Palestine‎

Nominator's rationale: rename, follow-up on this earlier discussion, this is yet another batch of subcategories in the tree of Category:State of Palestine that haven't been renamed yet. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:06, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: is there a consensus for the cut-off from which dates are to be renamed as State of Palestine? Category:Years in the Palestinian territories holds year categories going back to 1994, and Template:Years in the Palestinian territories likewise starts in 1994. However, Category:Establishments in the Palestinian territories by year goes back to 1982. There are also categories from 1982 to 1993 in Category:Establishments in the Israeli Civil Administration area by year. Before that, Category:Establishments in the Israeli Military Governorate by year has categories for 1967 to 1982.

We should be aware that some templates generate navigation links or parent categories from the two-letter code "ps"; this is currently expanded as "Palestinian territories". This could quite easily be changed (I did so a few weeks ago, but reverted myself). My point is that if some articles & categories for older years will be left with the name "Palestinian territories" while recent history is renamed to "State of Palestine", then links will be broken. Perhaps the best that we can do is to leave redirects, but those are clumsy for navigation in the case of category pages. – Fayenatic London 22:19, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

1994 sounds like a reasonable starting year, because of the establishment of the Palestinian National Authority. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:31, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

1994 could indeed be used as a starting year, as long as Category:Establishments in the Israeli Military Governorate by year and Category:Establishments in the Israeli Civil Administration area by year are kept as subcategories of the State of Palestine category. Years in Burkina Faso is an example of what can be done for a country which was described by several names in sequence. Place Clichy (talk) 16:38, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment while the year-based categories to me are clear, some of the others are less so. For example, burials. Is someone who was buried before 1994 in any sense a burial in the State of Palestine. Also, some of the Ethnic categories include people who died before 1994, and would be purely ahistorically categorized as State of Palestinian people: like Abraham I of Jerusalem for example rolls up to Category:State of Palestine through Category:Palestinian people which supposedly contains "citizens of the modern State of Palestine and their ancestors" which is odd because presumably an Armenian patriarch of Jerusalem has no descendants. This whole category tree seems a mess and a centralized discussion to resolve. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:17, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we should have another discussion about Category:Palestinian people but that is not part of this nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:12, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Abraham I of Jerusalem is not categorized as Palestinian and he cannot reasonably be.GreyShark (dibra) 12:49, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Then fix the tree where Abraham I of Jerusalem is in Category:Armenian Patriarchs of Jerusalem, which is in Category:Palestinian Armenians, which is in Category:Palestinian people of Armenian descent, which is in Category:Palestinian people by ethnic or national origin, which is in Category:Palestinian people, which is in Category:State of Palestine. This is a recurrent problem in trying to put people into ethnic niches overlapping with long afterward countries in an ahistoric way. And someone's proposing that we add more stuff into Category:State of Palestine tree that just doesn't belong there. I'll await your fix. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 19:04, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is inherent to our category system, which does not suppose heritage of categories up to a certain point. I don't really see a problem here, or if there is one 1°) it is not specific to Palestinian categories and 2°) any "fix" I can think of would be much, much worse than the "problem". If you go up further than that with the same logic, Abraham I of Jerusalem is also in Middle Eastern countries, United Nations General Assembly observers, United Nations General Assembly, United Nations organs, United Nations Charter, Political charters, Documents, Written communication etc. Abraham I is not a Middle Eastern country, a UN observer or a political document. Nobody is confused. Place Clichy (talk) 16:38, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose pre-2013 year categories; Support post-2013 year categories. Regarding others support only ethnic group cats, oppose the rest as anachronistic.GreyShark (dibra) 12:47, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How are Category:Youth in the Palestinian territories‎, Categories:Crime in the Palestinian territories etc; anachronistic? Place Clichy (talk) 16:38, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Because Crime in the Palestinian territories includes for instance Category:Prisoners and detainees of the Palestinian National Authority, which lists Hamdi Quran - he was imprisoned by PNA during 2002-2006. Putting such case under State of Palestine which was legalized in 2012/13 is an anachronism. Palestinian territories/PNA was a de-facto entity during 1994-2012 and categories for that period should remain as such.GreyShark (dibra) 06:15, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support all Fix the Category:Palestinian people later. Don't let that discussion, which is common to many state / ethnicity tree structures, derail this reasonable set of proposals. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:15, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for all general categories, also for annual categories before 2013 (or strictly 17 Dec. 2012, when UNO adopted the name "State of Palestine" for the territories on the grant of observer status at UN. Before that it is anachronistic. The general (not time-limited) categories need to be carefully split so as not to give inappropriate grandparents to categories. It must also be born in mind that State of Palestine has no de facto jurisdiction in the old city of Jerusalem, whatever its de jure claim. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:37, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support all. As per general practice, Topic in name-of-country should be the default format for all generic categories covering a topic in a certain tract of land, using the current name of that country. Archaeology of East Timor should cover any articles relative to archaeology in what is now East Timor (a very young country), and so should it be, by default, for most or all topics for the State of Palestine, when a better categorization for a specific topic historically bordered in time is not available. It is the exceptions that need be argued, and I see none here. Place Clichy (talk) 16:38, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose pre-2013 year categories as anachronistic, support 2013-and-forward year categories, and oppose all other (people) categories as needing more nuanced consideration outside of a mass "cleanup" nomination. If Category:Palestinian territories is to exist separately from Category:State of Palestine, we need to avoid absurd situations such as the current one where Category:Religion in the State of Palestine is a subcat of Category:Palestinian territories. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 19:42, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed the latter. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:03, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.