Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 June 22

June 22

Organisations based in Iraq

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename as needed, to "organizations" (option A). MER-C 09:25, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Organisations based in Iraq (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose renaming under one of the following options:
Option A - "Organisations" to "Organizations" (rename 21)
  1. Category:Organisations based in Iraq to Category:Organizations based in Iraq
  2. Category:Lists of organisations based in Iraq to Category:Lists of organizations based in Iraq
  3. Category:Organisations based in Baghdad to Category:Organizations based in Baghdad
  4. Category:Islamic organisations based in Iraq to Category:Islamic organizations based in Iraq
  5. Category:Religious organisations based in Iraq to Category:Religious organizations based in Iraq
  6. Category:Iraqi Kurdish organisations to Category:Iraqi Kurdish organizations
  7. Category:Medical and health organisations based in Iraq to Category:Medical and health organizations based in Iraq
  8. Category:Wikipedia categories named after organisations based in Iraq to Category:Wikipedia categories named after organizations based in Iraq
  9. Category:Youth organisations based in Iraq to Category:Youth organizations based in Iraq
  10. Category:Defunct organisations based in Iraq to Category:Defunct organizations based in Iraq
  11. Category:Transport organisations based in Iraq to Category:Transport organizations based in Iraq
  12. Category:Music organisations based in Iraq to Category:Music organizations based in Iraq
  13. Category:Sports organisations of Iraq to Category:Sports organizations of Iraq
  14. Category:Environmental organisations based in Iraq to Category:Environmental organizations based in Iraq
  15. Category:Iraqi journalism organisations to Category:Iraqi journalism organizations
  16. Category:Yazidi organisations in Iraq to Category:Yazidi organizations in Iraq
  17. Category:Scientific organisations based in Iraq to Category:Scientific organizations based in Iraq
  18. Category:Educational organisations based in Iraq to Category:Educational organizations based in Iraq
  19. Category:Cultural organisations based in Iraq to Category:Cultural organizations based in Iraq
  20. Category:Business organisations based in Iraq to Category:Business organizations based in Iraq
  21. Category:Paramilitary organisations based in Iraq to Category:Paramilitary organizations based in Iraq
Option B - "Organizations" to "Organisations" (rename 10)
  1. Category:Iraqi Turkmen organizations to Category:Iraqi Turkmen organisations
  2. Category:Women's organizations based in Iraq to Category:Women's organisations based in Iraq
  3. Category:Political organizations based in Iraq to Category:Political organisations based in Iraq
  4. Category:Standards organizations in Iraq to Category:Standards organisations in Iraq
  5. Category:Organizations of the 1991 uprisings in Iraq to Category:Organisations of the 1991 uprisings in Iraq
  6. Category:Human rights organizations based in Iraq to Category:Human rights organisations based in Iraq
  7. Category:Peace organizations based in Iraq to Category:Peace organisations based in Iraq
  8. Category:Apoist organizations in Iraq to Category:Apoist organisations in Iraq
  9. Category:Political organizations based in Iraq by ideology to Category:Political organisations based in Iraq by ideology
  10. Category:Feminist organizations in Iraq to Category:Feminist organisations in Iraq
User:Od Mishehu launched a series of cfds on this topic in 2017, the premise being that a given country should use either 'z' or 's' (but not a mixture thereof); eg France, Brazil, Bolivia, Iran, Angola, Greece, Poland, Israel, Puerto Rico, Turkey. Oculi (talk) 12:53, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Binghamton Crickets

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename; the arguments against it seem to be misunderstandings and have been refuted. – Fayenatic London 23:17, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: This grows out of a discussion at WP:RDE; see "19th-century minor league baseball" in the revision current as of nomination. In short, the 1870s team wore uniforms saying "Cricket" but were commonly known as "Crickets", so it should be at "Binghamton Crickets" as well, and thus we need to disambiguate. Neither team has an article. Also, please note that the discussion demonstrates that these two are indeed treated as separate teams; we shouldn't just merge them into a single category. I've proposed a naming format similar to Category:Washington Senators (1901–60) players and Category:Washington Senators (1891–99) players, although as the years these teams played may be a bit uncertain, I thought it would be wiser to use just the decades of their main activity, rather than a range of years. Nyttend (talk) 23:35, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am inclined to agree with your proposal. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:47, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Bugs was a participant in the WP:RDE discussion, and some of my nomination statement depends on what he found in some paywalled sources. Nyttend (talk) 23:55, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not 100% certain they are separate, but I do think that combining them would need more evidence of linkage than I have seen. Support proposal as written. --Khajidha (talk) 00:12, 23 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 09:09, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Sinéad O'Connor

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: No consensus. Timrollpickering (Talk) 13:49, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCEPON, this does not satisfy the criteria for an eponymous category, but would work well in the "works by" category tree. --woodensuperman 11:30, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - we have had thousands of musician cfds like this one which have been 'keep' with 3 subcats, delete with 1 and various with 2. 'Works' has so far been reserved for more substantial efforts than popular music. Pick some particular branch of a non-musician tree and prune it in a systematic fashion rather than bringing random odds and ends to cfd. Oculi (talk) 18:27, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Every single one of the articles and subcategories relate to her works, therefore this is much better suited to the works category tree. There is no justification for an eponymous category in this case, as there are no appropriate non-works articles to put in it. Something like Category:Works by Michael Brook or Category:Works by Thom Yorke are decent parallels. See Category:Works by filmmaker or Category:Works by writer to see how the "works" tree can be correctly and effectively implemented. Category:Works by musician should aim to be as good as those. --woodensuperman 08:52, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Even if this isn't renamed, Category:Works by Sinéad O'Connor should still be created so that it can sit properly in the Category:Works by Irish musicians category (and thus the whole Category:Works by Irish people tree), which would leave the eponymous category redundant. --woodensuperman 08:07, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Works by Irish musicians was created (needlessly) by Woodensuperman. Oculi (talk) 15:00, 19 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's not true. Look at Category:Works by American filmmakers, where the majority of them are only known for the platform of film. Or Category:Works by English writers, where most of them are only known for writing. And we certainly shouldn't be giving preference to an eponymous category over a works category per WP:OCEPON. --woodensuperman 08:02, 17 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 09:06, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Which part of the discussion? The other "keep" !votes have been rebuffed. --woodensuperman 12:45, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
LOL nothing has been "rebuffed. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 18:21, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:5th-century French people

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge/rename as nominated, any further changes should be proposed in new nominations. MER-C 09:19, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: merge/rename, French people did not exist yet in the 5th century, the best contemporary descriptor is Gallo-Roman. Disclosure: I created the target recently. I haven't included the 6th and the 7th century in this nomination because those are more complicated (they do not obviously have a Gallo-Roman target). Marcocapelle (talk) 06:21, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Some of the people in this category are Celtic Britons which colonized Brittany.: "Toward the end of the 4th century, the Britons of what is now Wales and the South-Western peninsula of Great Britain began to emigrate to Armorica. The history behind such an establishment is unclear, but medieval Breton, Angevin and Welsh sources connect it to a figure known as Conan Meriadoc. Welsh literary sources assert that Conan came to Armorica on the orders of the Roman usurper Magnus Maximus,... expelled from Lower Brittany by Conan on Magnus's orders. Regardless of the truth of this story, Brythonic (British Celtic) settlement probably increased during the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain in the 5th and 6th centuries. Scholars such as Léon Fleuriot have suggested a two-wave model of migration from Britain which saw the emergence of an independent Breton people and established the dominance of the Brythonic Breton language in Armorica. Their petty kingdoms are now known by the names of the French counties that succeeded them—Domnonée (Devon), Cornouaille (Cornwall), Léon (Caerleon); but these names in Breton and Latin are in most cases identical to their British homelands. (In Breton and French, however, Gwened or Vannetais continued the name of the indigenous Veneti.) Although the details remain confused, these colonies consisted of related and intermarried dynasties which repeatedly unified (as by the 7th-century Saint Judicaël) before splintering again according to Celtic inheritance practices. The area was finally consolidated in the 840s under Nominoe in resistance to Frankish control. Among the immigrant Britons, there were some clergymen who helped the evangelisation of the region, which was still pagan, particularly in rural areas." Dimadick (talk) 06:29, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment "I haven't included the 6th and the 7th century in this nomination because those are more complicated (they do not obviously have a Gallo-Roman target)" We already had a category about 6th century Gallo-Romans, and I created one for 7th-century Gallo-Romans, though by that time their culture was in decline. As noted in the main article Gallo-Roman culture:
"Into the seventh century, Gallo-Roman culture would persist particularly in the areas of Gallia Narbonensis that developed into Occitania, Cisalpine Gaul, Orléanais, and to a lesser degree, Gallia Aquitania. The formerly Romanized north of Gaul, once it had been occupied by the Franks, would develop into Merovingian culture instead.... Gallo-Roman language persisted in the northeast into the Silva Carbonaria that formed an effective cultural barrier with the Franks to the north and east, and in the northwest to the lower valley of the Loire, where Gallo-Roman culture interfaced with Frankish culture in a city like Tours and in the person of that Gallo-Roman bishop confronted with Merovingian royals, Gregory of Tours."
Gallo-Romans were one of the ethnicities in Francia (481–843): "Throughout the Frankish kingdoms there continued to be Gallo-Romans subject to Roman law and clergy subject to canon law. " Dimadick (talk) 06:37, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 09:05, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:The Disciples of Apocalypse

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. MER-C 09:42, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Only 4 pages, none will be added. Category is not needed Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 15:08, 17 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Galatz: Actually I was asking you to point me to a consensus or policy which "explicitly" mentions that any cat with less than "5 entries" should not be created.
Now, WP:SMALLCAT writes,Avoid categories that, by their very definition, will never have more than a few members, unless such categories are part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme,.... Point is -
  1. How much is "few members"? A rather vague statement. I can very well consider 6 entries in The Blue World Order members (only 2 more than DoA) to be "few members" and tag it for deletion. And Category:The Road Warriors members also has only 9 entries.
  2. The above guideline is also exempt from sub-categorization and The Disciples of Apocalypse is a Sub-CAT of WWE teams and stables.
Having said that, I'll stand by my words. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:59, 20 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Oculi: Yes, but those are specific exceptions in WP:SMALLCAT, this is not a common place category. If you look at Category:Professional wrestling teams and stables there are hundred of articles but very few categories for them. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 15:12, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:SMALLCAT, although the guideline is imprecise a minimum of 5 is used in practice a lot. A cut-off like 5 makes perfect sense to the extent that an article will mention ~4 members in one the opening sentences of the article, while ~10 members would be too many to mention in a opening sentence. In addition, the SMALLCAT exception does not apply, per Galatz. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:18, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • How? WP:SMALLCAT doesn't apply to Sub-CATSs as per its policy. I wonder how The Blue World Order members is totally OK which has only 2 more entries than The Disciples of Apocalypse. I really wish we had a guideline explicitly mentioning there need to be atleast 5 entries for a CAT. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:19, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 09:02, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:The Office (UK TV series) episodes

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge Category:The Office (British TV series) episodes (the new name for the nominated category) to Category:The Office (British TV series). MER-C 10:06, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: This category only contains two articles: the main episode list and an article about the Christmas specials. No other episodes have articles. It could very easily be restored if more episode-articles are ever created. Grapesoda22 (✉) 02:16, 17 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 09:02, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Members of the Fabian Society Executive Committee

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Members of the Fabian Society. – Fayenatic London 09:49, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Hard to see when this has ever been a defining characteristic of anyone. Bondegezou (talk) 16:13, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - a quick Google Books search find plenty of people for whom this is listed in a short biography, suggesting that it is defining for them. Also turns up repeatedly in Who's Who/Who Was Who entries, which are generally brief and include little more than defining characteristics. Warofdreams talk 16:35, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think inclusion in a short biography demonstrates that something meets WP:CATDEF. A defining characteristic, the text at CATDEF implies, is something in the first sentence or two of a short biography. I looked at a quasi-random sampling of people in this category:
I concur with BrownHairedGirl's description of the fundamental philosophical problem that a category may be defining for some people, but not others. I think the approach one has to take is on an article by article basis. For this person, a particular category is not defining and should not be added. For that person, it is and it should be.
This leaves us with some categories that might apply to a lot of people, but which are actually defining for only a few articles. I see a lot of school alumni categories that rarely seem defining, so I chop them from articles, but I can see they might be in certain situations.
In this particular case, however, while I can see that being a Fabian may meet DEFCAT, and we have a category for that, I struggle to see that this category, "Members of the Fabian Society Executive Committee‎", or indeed a related category, "Treasurers of the Fabian Society‎", are ever defining. The broader category of being a member of the Fabians seems sufficient. It's WP:OC to split that into 5 sub-categories ("Chairs of...", "General Secretaries of...", "Members of the Fabian Society Executive Committee‎", "Presidents of..." and "Treasurers of..."). Bondegezou (talk) 15:52, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I should have proposed upmerger, not deletion, shouldn't I? Bondegezou (talk) 15:54, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - if Fabian Society Executive Committee is not mentioned in an article then the category should be removed. (Editors should not be 'chopping' school alumni categories from articles (assuming the school is mentioned and preferably sourced). I think (in practice) we categorize by defining characteristics and also a list of factoids - year of birth, death, place person is from, school, university + a few others.) Oculi (talk) 11:09, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think, in practice, we should follow agreed guidelines (WP:NONDEF), which are that we categorise by defining characteristics only. Bondegezou (talk) 09:39, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep There are plenty of categories which are defining for some of the members, but not for others. Sometimes they reveal interesting connections which have not been generally noticed. I think we should keep them if they are significant for a reasonable number. I dont see much harm done if that means some people appear in categories which, as far as they are concerned, are not really defining. Rathfelder (talk) 21:36, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The harm is that we would be acting against an editing guideline in WP:NONDEF. Have a debate and change the guideline if you like, but I think it's unhelpful to try a backdoor subversion of an agreed guideline. Bondegezou (talk) 09:39, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Note that especially with biographies we should strictly keep to WP:DEFINING since biography articles too often contain a huge list of categories already, so that nobody can see the wood for the trees, which just undermines the usefulness of the category system. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:14, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in Principle/Upmerge to Category:Members of the Fabian Society. While these people do seem definined by their socialism and that is often intertwined with their Fabian Society activities, the couple hundred people in this category (of which I clicked on like 20) don't seem defined by what appears to be a volunteer stint in this executive role. (We have a parent category for any member though which is not nominated so I don't favor a straight deletion.) RevelationDirect (talk) 02:01, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete not defining for the people so categorized.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:06, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The real issue here is whether membership of the executive was, for a reasonable proportion of these people, more defining than just being a member of the society. I'd be surprised if that were true. Rathfelder (talk) 07:58, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 09:01, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Venezuela solidarity activists

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 09:27, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH and WP:NPOV concerns. The name is too ambiguous to know precisely what it means, and less than half of the articles mention Venezuela in their content. Most of the articles consist in British politicians, suggesting that they are members of the Venezuela Solidarity Campaign, but there are also non-British people such as Harry Belafonte, Deborah James, Nikolas Kozloff, Daniel Kovalik and Gregory Wilpert, which again brings a problem of original research. Jamez42 (talk) 16:33, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - This term has been around since the Hugo Chavez era and its meaning has remained fundamentally the same: solidarity with the duly-elected (i.e. legitimate) government of Venezuela AND opposition to US intervention. It's certainly NOT an issue of "original research" - that is a totally ludicrous assertion. I just checked all 5 of the US articles you listed, and every single one of them has clear, well-sourced content, usually under a section heading.
The reason most of the articles currently listed are British politicians is undoubtedly because the category was created by a British editor, presumably more familiar with the scene in the UK. But there are plenty of Venezuela solidarity activists here in the US (in the news recently as "Embassy Protectors"), and it seems there are also a goodly number in Australia.
As for any articles that don't mention Venezuela in their content, the standard/basic rules apply: ideally, the editor/s who added the category to those articles (or anyone else who cares to) should also see to it that sourced info is added in order to support inclusion; if that doesn't happen, those articles can be removed from the category. PS - I will try to find time to add some of the other US people some time later today. Anomalous+0 (talk) 20:43, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I have taken the liberty to remove the articles that don't mention Venezuela in their content. I have failed to find use of the term besides in the context of the Venezuela Solidarity Campaign, both in and outside Wikipedia. The issue with the original research is the term and the categorization, not the content of the articles per se. In any case, this definition seems to fit either with support of the Bolivarian Revolution or the ruling party, and the . This is one of the reasons why the term "Venezuela solidarity" is problematic and lacks neutrality. For instance, which would be the differences with the category Venezuelan democracy activists? Opposition to the economic crisis or human rights violations? The category is both ambiguous and broad, and a name such as "Bolivarian Revolution supporters" would be more suitable. --Jamez42 (talk) 20:18, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove, mostly personalities that are not notable inside Venezuela. The category follows and criteria that is not precise and seems WP:ORIGINAL.--MaoGo (talk) 22:14, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove it would have to be linked to Venezuela Solidarity Campaign (or other groups) to be easily defined as a category, with the ambiguity of solidarity in individuals' statements/actions/beliefs compared to the stated manifestos of groups — and at that point, it makes more sense to just have a "Venezuela Solidarity Campaign members" category, especially for readers who are unaware of the implications of the term and may confuse a simple assertion of "solidarity" as being supportive of the opposition, government, peace, or something else. Kingsif (talk) 22:46, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2019_June_22&oldid=911688216"
Uses material from the Wikipedia article Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 June 22, released under the CC BY-SA 4.0 license.