Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 21

August 21

Category:Eskimo Joe members

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 31#Category:Eskimo Joe members

Category:Religion in the Arab world

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 31#Category:Religion in the Arab world

Category:18th-century people from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth by occupation

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 31#Category:18th-century people from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth by occupation

Fooian culture to Culture of Fooland part 2

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename The late additions by Santasa99 will have to be brought to a new nomination. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:55, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C (all are in Category:European culture by country) & WP:C2D (all main articles are called Culture of Fooland). Follow-up to consensus established at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 9#Fooian culture to Culture of Fooland. I recommend leaving a redirect (already exists in 3 cases). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:38, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:51, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy rename per WP:C2C and predecent consensus was opposed by @Marcelus: Oppose, foonian culture and culture of foo isn't the same. Further talks resulted in the decision to move to full.
Pinging participants from previous discussion for this follow-up: @Marcocapelle, Laurel Lodged, and Fayenatic london: for your consideration. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:05, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Nederlandse Leeuw please inform all potentially inerested Wikiprojects Marcelus (talk) 22:07, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Culture of foo is much better category name, as it is much broader. For example, Hungarian culture includes the culture of Hungary, but also, for example, the culture of Hungarians in Romania or in the USA. Besides, the borders are changing. Franz Liszt was born outside modern Hungary. Marcelus (talk) 22:45, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am no longer opposing this. A while back I read it as "Culture in Fooland" and therefore opposed it because I thought it would exclude expatriates. But in hindsight "Culture of Fooland" still covers that too. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Fooian culture also covers expatriates, and is much broader in general, because not linked to a particular country, but to a culture as a whole; care to elaborate why you are advocating narrower scope? Logically culture of Foo should be a subcategory of Fooian culture, not replacing it. Marcelus (talk) 06:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, following renaming of "society" categories likewise, here and here. I think I opposed these in the past, on the basis that culture also applies in the diasporas, but as Marcocapelle says, this is not a conclusive objection. – Fayenatic London 06:37, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rationale expanded: WP:C2C (all are in Category:European culture by country) & WP:C2D (all main articles are called Culture of Fooland). This helps new participants understand the nomination. The main article names are the more important argument than consistency in category tree naming. WP:C2D can take precedence over WP:C2C. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I might add the observation that since the early days of English Wikipedia, roughly c. 2001-2006, all articles in this category were created under the title of Culture of Fooland, while in the c. 2003-2008, all the redirects called Fooian culture were created to redirect readers to Culture of Fooland. The move logs don't always accurately preserve the early history of renaming or deleting pages, but it may be that in the early days some articles were originally named Fooian culture (which is why the first sentence of these articles may still feature the boldened phrase Fooian culture today), but they were moved to avoid confusion with the language of the same name. In other cases,Culture of Fooland already existed, and Fooian culture was created as a redirect to it (far more common). Around the same time, subcategories of countries were created about that country's culture. E.g. Category:Barland would have a subcategory named Barian culture. From June 2004 onwards, these subcategories were all grouped into Category:Culture by country.
Some examples
And this pattern holds true for almost all these articles and their redirects in the 2000s. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The following main articles were moved from Fooian culture to Culture of Fooland:
Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:18, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But we are debating the scope of categories, not articles, aren't we? Marcelus (talk) 15:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They are the same. They have always been the same. Both the main articles and the connected categories have always included expatriates, and the spreading or influence of the culture of Fooland abroad.
E.g. from the day that Culture of Greece was created on 23 February 2003, it included a reference to (Ancient) Greek philosophy, which originated in Ancient Greece, but spread around Asia, Africa and Europe later. At the time, the article (Ancient) Greek philosophy indicated:There are clear unbroken lines of influence from early Greek philosophers, through early Muslim philosophy especially the Mutazilite school, to the Renaissance and hence the secular sciences of the modern day. There has never been the suggestion that just because the article is named Culture of Greece, we can't talk about how that culture spread abroad outside Greece. Today, Culture of Greece#Philosophy, science and mathematics states:The tradition of philosophy in ancient Greece accompanied its literary development. Greek learning had a profound influence on Western and Middle Eastern civilizations. The works of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and other Greek philosophers profoundly influenced Classical thought, the Islamic Golden Age, and the Renaissance.
Similarly, there is no need to be worried that whatever Culture of Belarus is spread abroad can't be mentioned. E.g. Culture of Belarus#Literature tells a little story:By the 16th century, Polotsk resident Francysk Skaryna translated the Bible into Belarusian. It was published in Prague and Vilnius between 1517 and 1525, making it the first book printed in Belarus or anywhere in Eastern Europe. Nobody is saying we can't mention that just because Prague is not located inside Belarus. This is a nice example of the culture of Belarus being spread abroad, and that's okay. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:33, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I really think that we should dicuss it case by case, possibly with involvement of Wikiprojects, unlike you I don't consider myself expert on every culture on earth. Category:Azerbaijani culture is the best example of that, afaik state of Azerbaijan isn't the main center of Azerbaijani culture. Azerbaijani culture shows it quite well. Marcelus (talk) 16:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've posted invitations to participate in this CfR to WikiProject Countries and WikiProject Culture. I don't think it will be necessary to request permission from everyone at, say, WP:WikiProject Andorra to rename Category:Andorran culture to Category:Culture of Andorra if the main article has been called Culture of Andorra since 2004 and the scope of the main article and adjoining category have remained unchanged for the past 19 years. But if you think so, go ahead. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcelus, please can you clarify your position? Above you saidCulture of foo is much better category name, as it is much broader but you seems to be suggesting into should reviewed case by case here. Qwerfjkltalk 20:58, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Viziers of the medieval Islamic world

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 31#Category:Viziers of the medieval Islamic world

Category:Greek Orthodoxy by continent

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 31#Category:Greek Orthodoxy by continent

Wikipedians who believe that a hot dog is (not) a sandwich

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: speedy delete per author request. ✗plicit 13:24, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Propose deleting Category:Wikipedians who believe that a hot dog is not a sandwich (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Propose deleting Category:Wikipedians who believe that a hot dog is a sandwich (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: Fails WP:USERCAT for lacking any discernible collaborative function. * Pppery * it has begun... 13:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Recipients of the Ulloor Award

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 21:04, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose Deleting Category:Recipients of the Ulloor Award
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SHAREDNAME, WP:OCAWARD, and WP:NONDEFINING
There are 3 different "Ulloor Awards" issued by 2 different organisations that are all named after renowned Malayalam poet Ulloor S. Parameswara Iyer. In practice the 2 articles in this category don't treat the award as defining, (1) mentioning it in passing with other honours or (2) not mentioning it at all. The recipients are already listified here, here and here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Prix Emmanuel Roblès recipients

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 21:04, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose Deleting Category:Prix Emmanuel Roblès recipients
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCAWARD and WP:NONDEFINING
The Emmanuel Roblès Prize is a French literary award for an author's first novel. The award might be initially defining for these young authors but, by the time they are notable enough for a Wikipedia article, this award is usually mentioned in passing with other honours. This is one of many French literary award categories created in late 2016/early 2017 by a banned editor. The contents are already listified here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Military personnel of the medieval Islamic world

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 31#Category:Military personnel of the medieval Islamic world

Category:People associated with the University of Auckland

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 August 31#Category:People associated with the University of Auckland

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