Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 26

May 26

Category:City Park (Budapest)

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep. Now has 8 articles. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 12:07, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT. –Aidan721 (talk) 23:41, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:32nd-century BC rulers

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 4#Category:32nd-century BC rulers

Category:Dubai Neighborhoods

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Communities in Dubai. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:55, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: all articles in the "neighborhoods" category refer to communities. 1857a (talk) 23:02, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Places of local interest needing cleanup

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 18#Category:Places of local interest needing cleanup

Category:Consciousness studies

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Consciousness. Some users argued for keeping a separate category for research on consciousness, but Carchasm (talk · contribs) believes that a new name will be required. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:36, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Duplicate category, both of these should logically include exactly the same pages - car chasm (talk) 21:07, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Didn't know that (I keep far away from bots and tools, being Amish /s). I still oppose per the fact that some of the categories related to consciousness are being currently depleted of entrants. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:16, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My 1st choice would still be a merge but a partial merge would still be an improvement over the status quo. If there is not a consensus for a merge, this would be my 2nd choice. - RevelationDirect (talk) 14:09, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Same. I think a merge is preferable, but a (manual) merge of all but the organization or academic journal pages up to Category:Consciousness would still be better than not doing that. I think we'd want to rename the category if that were the consensus though, so we don't end up with more pages that belong in the parent category in the future. - car chasm (talk) 18:33, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Genderless or non-binary video game characters

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Non-binary video game characters. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:59, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: The idea a character lacks a gender is not defining of the character. Beyond that, there is no character in the category who is provably non-binary, so it consists of original research. All we know is that their gender is not told to the player. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 20:35, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:46, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. The article 343 Guilty Spark, says "he was originally created from the mind of a human being". This has nothing to do with gender. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:51, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Rename to Category:Non-binary video game characters per Marcocapelle. This is better than a simple Keep. Nom also suggested the very same catname at Category talk:Genderless or non-binary video game characters#About the category's title. I think nom and you have a point that "unknown gender / indeterminate gender / unspecified gender" may be WP:NONDEFINING, so such items should not be put into this category per WP:OCMISC. (Maybe 343 Guilty Spark is an example of that, or simply an item to which "gender" doesn't apply because it's a robot?). I think The Master (Fallout) is an example of ambiguous gender (mentioned by car chasm):The Fallout development team created the character concept as a synthesis of a man, a woman, and a computer terminal mutated together. This is not unknown/indeterminate/unspecified, because information about the subject's gender is provided. This readily falls within the spectrum of non-binary gender. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:17, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Carchasm @Cukie Gherkin We three agree about keeping the category, but what do you think about renaming it without the words "genderless and" in it? I think Marcocapelle has a good point, the same name was already proposed by nom Zxcvbnm, and creator Kung Fu Man seemed to be unsure about "genderless", and open to changing the name into something else. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:47, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's probably fine; I just walk a fine line on such categorization, as I feel that there is some grey area on defining non-binary. Like, is a character whose society or species does not recognize gender as a concept non-binary since it exists outside of the spectrum? This isn't me objecting, by the by, just my reasoning. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 09:53, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good point, I agree. The video game's world thinking about gender may be different from our real-world thinking about gender, or not have any concept of gender at all. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:01, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If genderless can/does fall under non-binary, perhaps Category:Non-binary and ambiguous gender video game characters? That would cover both unstated characters like Lavos and purposefully ambiguous characters like Leo from Tekken if that ever becomes an article.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:55, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think that works, it matches the category tree higher up - Category:People with non-binary gender identities has Category:Agender people as a subcategory, and this all matches my intuition on the terms. I suspect it will also cause less confusion with characters that have no specified gender. - car chasm (talk) 16:00, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Passage hurlers

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Passage West hurlers. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:59, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: I think that both these categories refer to Passage West GAA. I will leave a note at WP:WikiProject Gaelic games. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:32, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Subcats of People from Cobh

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:00, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Propose mergeing:
Nominator's rationale: per WP:SMALLCAT. These malformed categories (only parent is Category:People from Cobh) are tiny (3, 1 , 2, 4 pages respectively) and have little potential for growth, because Cobh is a small town and the parent Category:People from Cobh has only 20 pages. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:43, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

International baseball competitions

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:00, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose merging:
Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT. –Aidan721 (talk) 19:25, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Ice hockey players by team and country

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Ice hockey players by club. In my opinion, the arguments based on consistency and the small size of the upper layer, to which the nominated category will be merged, outweigh any concerns about the proposed merge target. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:39, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Layer that doesn't help navigation. Not present in other Category:Sportspeople by club or team categories Kaffet i halsen (talk) 17:52, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Years in Canada

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:41, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: During this time Canada was a French and British colony/province. Not enough content per year to warrant this by year tree prior to the Upper Canada/Lower Canada split. Merge per WP:SMALLCAT. –Aidan721 (talk) 16:24, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Clicked through the links in Hudson's Bay Company#17th century and Hudson's Bay Company#18th century, and and those articles either didn't use Canadian date categories (Prince of Wales Fort) or didn't use date categories at all (Moose Factory). - RevelationDirect (talk) 04:03, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've updated 1763 to be merged to both New France and the British Empire. And I have already manually checked that none of the prior years include any Rupert's Land articles. –Aidan721 (talk) 23:56, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! My iVote is updated. - RevelationDirect (talk) 11:52, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Professional sports people

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:12, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose deleting Category:Professional sports people (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Propose deleting Category:Professional sports people by sport‎‎
Nominator's rationale: A big chunk of the sportspeople with articles are professional. Also this category combines sports business professionals and sportspeople on professional tours. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 16:22, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Amputee football people

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Amputee football players. There is also consensus to upmerge Category:Amputee football players by nationality because there is only one subcategory. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:14, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose deleting Category:Amputee football people (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Propose deleting Category:Amputee football people by nationality‎
Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary layer as the only kind of people at present is Category:Amputee football players‎. Player category would need to be recategorised to Category:Amputee football and Player by nationality to Category:Amputee football by country Kaffet i halsen (talk) 16:03, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Expatriates

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge with manual review to avoid redundant categorizations. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:10, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Full list of around 195 categories
This is the full list of categories nominated at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 26#Expatriates
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Comment: How am I (or anyone else) meant to grow these to 5 if they're deleted after 5 weeks of existence as I'm working through various inadequately categorised topics? Crowsus (talk) 02:01, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Crowsus: the categories are not deleted but merged, so the former content is still available in the parent categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:12, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, but if there happens to be e.g an Icelandic male footballer, female footballer, ice hockey player, basketball player, handball player and volleyball player in the Czech Republic, they will each appear in the two parent expat categories but there is no way of knowing they would make a numerically valid set of 6 sportspeople, and editors are not being given the chance to build them up due to smallcat purges. Crowsus (talk) 06:32, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Petscan does exactly what you want; the intersection of Icelandic expatriates and expatriates in the Czech Republic is listed here. (I haven't nominated any sportspeople or ambassador categories.) Oculi (talk) 14:45, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Oculi: thanks very much, that is an interesting tool I wasn't aware of (experimented with Belgians in Germany as a random pairing and have been able to add 10 eligible articles). Unfortunately it can't help with those where expat cats of any level have been neglected entirely, but I suppose I could look at leagues or sports of the relevant countries if I was really desperate to find more - I might experiment on that with Icelanders in the Czech Republic, but there probably won't be a great deal for that pairing even with missing categories. Crowsus (talk) 06:49, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:European chronicles

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 18#Category:European chronicles

Category:Nilan Bisons players

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 14:46, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: 寒吉 (talk) 12:43, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Australian Olympic coaches

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Olympic coaches for Australia , etc. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:43, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose renaming Category:Australian Olympic coaches to Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for Australia
  • Propose renaming Category:French Olympic coaches to Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for France
  • Propose renaming Category:German Olympic coaches to Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for Germany
  • Propose renaming Category:British Olympic coaches to Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for Great Britain
  • Propose renaming Category:Japanese Olympic coaches to Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for Japan
  • Propose renaming Category:New Zealand Olympic coaches to Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for New Zealand
  • Propose renaming Category:Nigerian Olympic coaches to Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for Nigeria
  • Propose renaming Category:Norwegian Olympic coaches to Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for Norway
  • Propose renaming Category:American Olympic coaches to Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for the United States
  • Propose renaming Category:Spanish Olympic coaches to Category:Coaches of Olympic competitors for Spain
  • Propose renaming Category:Paralympic coaches of Australia to Category:Coaches of Paralympic competitors for Australia
  • Propose renaming Category:Paralympic coaches of Canada‎ to Category:Coaches of Paralympic competitors for Canada
  • Propose renaming Category:Paralympic coaches of Fiji‎ to Category:Coaches of Paralympic competitors for Fiji‎
  • Propose renaming Category:Paralympic coaches of Spain‎ to Category:Coaches of Paralympic competitors for Spain
Nominator's rationale: All American coaches in the category are not American people et cetera. It is possible that Olympic coach is too broad, but that would need to take Category:Olympic coaches and Category:Paralympic coaches in consideration. For national team coaches, their role as national team coaches are more defining than for coaching teams of the same NOC, coaches of individual sportspeople are hard to define. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 11:24, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in principle. To me "Coaches of Olympic competitors for Fooland" is unnecessarily long. I'd prefer "Olympic coaches for Fooland". But I agree that "Fooian Olympic coaches" is misleading as it implied the nationality of the coaches whereas it's implying a representative country. –Aidan721 (talk) 13:29, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    No problem for me. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 19:48, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Olympic coaches for Fooland per Aidan721. Perhaps even more concise would be to simply replace Fooian by Fooland, e.g. Category:Germany Olympic coaches, Category:United States Olympic coaches. But I can readily see the problem, because "New Zealand" is often used as an adjective, as in this case already, and so is "United States". So Olympic coaches for Fooland is a better option. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:47, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Support Olympic coaches for Fooland, current name structure definitely needs changed. Crowsus (talk) 19:52, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alt Rename to Olympic coaches for Fooland per Aidan721. Addresses the legitimate ethnicity vs country issue in the nom but isn't so wordy. - RevelationDirect (talk) 04:35, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Olympic team doctors

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:06, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Varying types of Olympic involvement. WP:NONDEFINING. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 11:24, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Queen of the Universe contestants

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:06, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per all the other ones, these people were already famous, so this fails WP:PERFCAT. --woodensuperman 10:51, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Olympic competitors for Northern Rhodesia

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:04, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Wikipedia articles (1, 2), IOC and Olympedia consider Northern Rhodesia and Zambia the same. Similar cases have one category. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 08:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Olympic ice hockey players for North Korea

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:06, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: All in this category played for Korea at the 2018 Winter Olympics and all are already categorised in the Category:North Korean ice hockey players tree and in Category:Winter Olympics competitors for Korea. Kaffet i halsen (talk) 08:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, if there are future combined entries in other years and events I would suggest these be moved into a Category:Olympic ice hockey players for Korea cat, although that would be unnecessary at present. Crowsus (talk) 20:00, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Olympic tug of war competitors for Germany

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: All three competed in the 1906 Intercalated Games (not considered Olympics). (It could also be renamed Category:Tug of war competitors at the 1906 Intercalated Games for Germany but that tree doesn't have that kind of category). Kaffet i halsen (talk) 08:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Ancient rulers by century and continent

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:46, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: manually merge/rename/re-parent, for the first two: redundant category layer with only two subcategories each for Europe and Asia. For the others: rename per actual content, all articles are about monarchs. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Babylonian kings after 539 BC

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:49, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose deleting Category:1st-century Babylonian kings
  • Propose deleting Category:1st-century BC Babylonian kings
  • Propose deleting Category:2nd-century Babylonian kings
  • Propose deleting Category:2nd-century BC Babylonian kings
  • Propose deleting Category:3rd-century BC Babylonian kings
  • Propose deleting Category:4th-century BC Babylonian kings‎
  • Propose deleting Category:5th-century BC Babylonian kings
Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:NONDEF, WP:OVERLAPCAT. Since the Neo-Babylonian Empire did no longer exist after 539 BC, these categories are just populated with Persian and Seleucid monarchs. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:13, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose What does the Neo-Babylonian Empire have to do with anything? Babylon as a city continued to be an administrative center, the Babylonians kept writing regnal lists, and the List of kings of Babylon continues until either 141 BC or 224 AD. Dimadick (talk) 08:46, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. These people were not titled Babylonian kings, they were kings/monarchs for other empires which are already categorized. –Aidan721 (talk) 13:41, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename all to Category:Xth-century kings of Babylon. As Dimadick said, the Seleucid and Persian monarchs kept calling themselves "king of Babylon", it was title acquired by conquest and annexation, if a titular / symbolic one. Aidan is correct that they weren't "Babylonian" (at least not in the sense of an "ethnicity" or "nationality"), so to avoid confusion, the obvious solution is to go for "kings of Babylon" per Suggestion B (co-developed by Marcocapelle and me): we rename/rescope all Fooian monarchs to Monarchs of Foo, and take them out of the "People by nationality" tree. (In this case we don't have to do the latter; Category:Babylonian people is already in Category:People by former country). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:38, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Nederlandse Leeuw: I do not question the fact that they called themselves "king of Babylon". However, we categorize based on WP:DEFINING characteristics and no historian is going to refer to these kings as "kings of Babylon". Marcocapelle (talk) 07:15, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Marcocapelle Well, not primarily, no, just like we wouldn't primarily refer to Napoleon as "King of Italy", even though he was; he is mentioned that in his infobox and is categorised as such.
    Incidentally, I find it interesting that Frederick Barbarossa is mentioned "King of Italy" in the infobox, but is not categorised as such. Category:Kings of Italy has a huge gap between Category:10th-century kings of Italy‎ and Category:19th-century kings of Italy‎. Hmmm. I'm gonna look through some of my reference works to see what that results in. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:27, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh LOL you are responsible for creating that gap per Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2019_July_27#Category:Kings_of_Italy.
    Delete per WP:NONDEF. After Otto I became King of Italy in 961 and Holy Roman Emperor in 962, the kingdom of Italy became fully integrated in the Holy Roman Empire and "King of Italy" was a mere duplicate title of the Holy Roman Emperors/German kings. In many articles about Holy Roman Emperors the title King of Italy is not even mentioned in the main text. There is only one exception, Arduin of Ivrea, who ruled independently 1002-1014, but he is already directly in Category:Kings of Italy. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:00, 27 July 2019
    The result of the discussion was: delete. MER-C 09:34, 4 August 2019
    Kinda makes sense. Okay I'll just take that look in my reference works to see if I'm changing my mind. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:30, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • "King of Italy after the 10th century is a nice analogy of non-definingness. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:32, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      L. de Blois & R.J. van der Spek, Een kennismaking met de Oude Wereld (2004). Bussum: Uitgeverij Coutinho. say on p. 44–45 that Tiglath-Pileser III (r. 745–727 BCE) stillhad himself crowned as Babylonian king, and participated in the accompanying Babylonian rituals. This respect for Babylonian culture may be explained by the Assyrians' (...) So Category:8th-century BC Babylonian kings were certainly still a thing of significance. This is a theme in this reference work: foreign conquerors would always respect Babylonian traditions and reign over the city and its realm in a kind of personal union. But p. 47 says:
      The last Babylonian king, Nabonidus, was a strange man. (...) This all caused due resentment in Babylon. The city thus became an easy prey for the new power from the east: Persia. P. 48 continues:
      In Babylon, there was resentment about the reign of Nabonidus and Belshazzar. Many hoped a power takeover by Cyrus would improve things. Cyrus aptly used this in his propaganda. Indeed, he showed respect for Babylon and its traditions. Babylon was not destroyed, and the cult of Marduk could continue. In that regard, however, Cyrus did not act much different from most Assyrian kings.
      So, de Blois & van der Spek call Nabonidusthe last Babylonian king, and unlike with Tiglath-Pileser III, they do not explicitly say whether Cyrus had himself crownedas Babylonian king or not. But therespect shown for Babylon and its traditions is directly linked withmost Assyrian kings which conquered Babylon in the past (like Tiglath-Pileser III), and which they do callBabylonian kings. So do they consider Cyrus aBabylonian king or not? If yes, what makes Nabonidusthe last Babylonian king? If they mean the last independent/sovereign Babylonian king, they may have a point, which you also made about the kings of Italy. Hah, well, it's interesting. This takes me back to the early days of studying history in college. :) Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:08, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      @Marcocapelle In the Behistun Inscription, Darius the Great calls himself inter alia "king of Babylon":King Darius says: These are the countries which are subject unto me, and by the grace of Ahuramazda, I became king of them: Persia [Pârsa], Elam [Ûvja], Babylonia [Bâbiruš], Assyria [Athurâ], (...)
      He also called rebel king of Babylon Nebuchadnezzar III, who (falsely) claimed to be a son of Nabonidus, a liar:This is Nidintu-Bêl. He lied, saying "I am Nebuchadnezzar, the son of Nabonidus. I am king of Babylon." (I guess that makes Nidintu-Bêl similar to Andriscus, who (probably falsely) claimed to be a grandson of Perseus of Macedon and called himself "Philip VI").
      However, de Blois & van der Spek indicate on p. 49:
      Before [Darius], the (Persian) empire had been divided into superprovinces ('satrapies'). For example, the former Neo-Babylonian empire was one satrapy. Darius reorganised this division and created some twenty smaller satrapies (...). A satrapy was governed by a governor ('satrap'). So it becomes clear that Babylon(ia) was essentially annexed by either Cyrus or Cambyses II already and made into a satrapy i.e. province with a satrap i.e. non-dynastic governor, and Darius just further dismembered it into yet smaller provinces. Seems like "King of Babylon" was pretty much titular by then; an honorific that no longer meant anything, and certainly not a personal union between theoretically equal and independent/sovereign kingdoms.
      Alright, I'm changing my mind and support delete per nom. Thanks for challenging me! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:39, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Marina Sena

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary eponymous category for an article for one album which is already appropriately categorized. WP:OCEPON StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 00:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Books by Celeste Buckingham

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Category only contains one item and is unlikely to grow, thus currently unnecessary. WP:NONDEF, WP:SMALL ForsythiaJo (talk) 03:30, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Books by Carmel Buckingham

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Author doesn't even have their own article, and category only contains one item. WP:GNG. ForsythiaJo (talk) 03:30, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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