"Simon has sat on the fence so long that the iron has entered into his soul" is a quotation attributed to David Lloyd George. I have been unable to come up with a definitive source, and neither Roy Jenkins (in The Chancellors), nor Duncan Brack (in The Dictionary of Liberal Quotations) have been able to either. Can the RefDeskers do better? Thank you. I felt sure I'd asked this here before, but I cannot find any trace of it in the archives. DuncanHill (talk) 18:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I looked into this question a while ago. The earliest evidence I could find came from a diary entry by Sir George Riddell for 14th December 1912:

The other day F. E. Smith told me a good story of a member who, when speaking in the House of Commons, remarked, "Mr. So-and-So has sat for so long on the fence that the iron has entered into his soul".

It's here. Shame that no-one's named. --Antiquary (talk) 20:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Both parties were named by Konni Zilliacus in 1935. Google Books also claims to have it in a version naming Lloyd George and Simon in a 1931 number of the New Statesman, but I find their dating of "Snippet view" periodicals unreliable. --Antiquary (talk) 21:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I found a 1922 case of "Who was it who said of a Free Church leader: "he has sat on the fence so long that the iron has entered into his soul"?". DuncanHill (talk) 01:33, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Ha! The Spring 1905 number of Forest Leaves magazine (here at vol. II, no. 2, p. 16) gives us this: "Winston Churchill said that Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman 'had sat so long on the fence that the iron had entered into his soul.'" A rare example, then, of Churchillian Drift in reverse. --Antiquary (talk) 08:11, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

One more Google search tells us that Churchill said this at a meeting of the Bow and Bromley Conservative Association in, apparently, April 1905. --Antiquary (talk) 10:04, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oh well done! I'd always rather associated it with Manchuria. Lloyd George does have a certain gravitational pull for put-downs. I can't quite see him actually nicking one of Churchill's, and I think he would not want to associate himself, even indirectly, with such a negative comment about CB. I'm reminded by Jeeves and the Yule-tide Spirit that it is an echo of Psalm 105:18 in the Prayer Book. If I were Lawrence Frances Flick I would be VERY careful about the choice of type-face for my bookmarks DuncanHill (talk) 10:58, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I found the Forest Leaves version (with a couple more from the column) in The Mail (Dublin) 4 January 1905. Interestingly, there was an article in lots of local papers in January 1905 which mention the iron entering Lloyd George's soul as a result of how power is abused in the hands of an ascendant Church. DuncanHill (talk) 11:16, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. Got a link to the Mail version? --Antiquary (talk) 11:31, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) The Belfast Telegraph - Thursday 23 May 1907 says that Mr Churchill made the dig at CB "at Bow, February 19, 1902". Dublin Mail 4 Jan 1905 Column called "Mixed Metaphors" DuncanHill (talk) 11:35, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The "iron entered his/my/our soul(s)" trope seems very common at the time, usually of course in a more positive sense. DuncanHill (talk) 11:35, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

And here is a report of Churchill addressing the Annual Meeting of the Bow and Bromley Conservative Association from the Derby Daily Telegraph Thursday 20 February 1902 Mr. Winston Churchill and the War. DuncanHill (talk) 11:39, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The report appears in many local papers. The report in the Westminster Gazette says CB has NOT (my emphasis) sat so long on the fence that the iron has entered his soul. DuncanHill (talk)

If you have access to a copy it might be worth taking a look at the eight-volume Winston S. Churchill: His Complete Speeches, 1897-1963, edited by Robert Rhodes James. --Antiquary (talk) 14:14, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not in Volume I, where it should be. DuncanHill (talk) 18:11, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The anecdote is told in a Lloyd George–John Simon version on page 472 of The New Statesman and Nation issue of October 17, 1931:

Sir John Simon's acidity of temperament and capacity for being a little in several camps but beloved by none led his late chief to remark—or so I'm told—that "Sir John has sat so long on the fence, that the iron has entered into his soul."             Critic.^[1]

Here one can verify, in spite of the snippetness of the permitted views, that this indeed the issue of this date. So it is indeed true that Lloyd George "is said" (or, more precisely, "has been said") to have commented this – although using a slightly different word order and punctuation than the quotation in our article. It is, of course, by no means sure that he actually has done so.  --Lambiam 14:55, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Here it is on Archive.org. It is Volume II Number 34, despite what Google claims. DuncanHill (talk) 18:04, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, the Churchill/Campbell-Bannerman version was still being quoted as "famous" as late as 1950, so the two variants co-existed for many years. --Antiquary (talk) 17:13, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]