Wikipedia:WikiProject Figure Skating/Assessment/A-Class review

I'm happy to join this A-class review from Sunday onward. First notes:

• The table templates for world records, programs, and competitive highlights look good already. I will take a closer look at the infobox and detailed results section later.
• The external links section needs some brush-up, both the list of weblinks and navigation boxes. I will list the most important issues later.

Kim's webpage is broken and a brief goggle yields nothing, so I removed it. Does anyone know if she still has a webpage at a different URL? I also removed some of the older/archived and redundant items. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe she has a website anymore, no. Artemisia (talk) 21:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

My focus in this review will be on:

1. the adaptation of the revamped Wiki figure skating style and terminology guide
2. linking and text/image formatting
3. sourcing and formatting of the references/inline citations
4. copyright and license check (incl. images)

I will also take a look at the content and writing, but I recommend to have another reviewer with deeper knowledge about Yuna's career as well as a copy-editor for articles written in British English (as English is only my third language and I am more familiar with American English). Henni147 (talk) 17:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Quick update: I want to finish the revamp of our project page and the assessment guidelines first before starting this review, so it may take another day. I hope that is okay. Henni147 (talk) 14:29, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Review start: Finally, I got the time to start my A-class review! First of all, I want to express my appreciation for your fantastic work! I crossread the article, and it is some really fine work. I decided to tackle the structure issue first because that may come with the most work to fix:

• Important note on "retirement": As per WP:FS TERM, the term "retirement" should only be used for skaters who officially retired from both competitive and professional figure skating, and are no longer performing at skating events at all. If my information is correct, Kim's last skating performance was at the 2019 All That Skate, so the correct infobox entry should look as shown on the right. Please make sure to follow this terminology convention in the lead section and prose part of the article as well.
  • I respectfully have to disagree with this. Kim has never stated that she has retired from professional skating; we should not use a retirement date we cannot verify. It's quite possible she could continue to participate in shows in the future. All of the sources state that she retired from competitive skating in 2014 – I believe that we should follow their lead. Artemisia (talk) 15:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Artemisia; there are no sources that support the assertion that Kim is done with professional skating. I'll keep the date open for now. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

• Section headings:
  • Change "Competitive career" to "Competitive skating career" and "Show skating career" to "Professional skating career". Make sure that the "Competitive skating career" only covers events from the first skating competition onward, starting in 2001, and move everything else into the "Early life" section, which should focus on the skater's family background and how the skater got into figure skating.
    • We actually discussed renaming the show skating career section previously. The issue is that she began participating in shows while she was still an amateur. But if you think a different name would be more fitting, I'm open to changing it. Artemisia (talk) 15:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

That often happens now: ever since the rules have become more lax about amateur/professional status, skaters (and other athletes) have started their professional careers while still competing internationally. I agree with the heading changes, so done. I'm also done with the restructuring you suggested.Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

• • Turn the "Coaches" section into a sub-section of the "Competitive skating career" or merge its content into the prose (recommended). The prose part of the article should not be disrupted by a statistics section that only contains a bulleted list.

Moved "Coaches" section to the end of the "Competitive skating career". I disagree about changing the bulleted list into prose because the content is already in other sections and because it'd be boring to present it that way. Is there a policy that states your assertion about bulleted lists? To be honest, the only reason the list exists is because it was already there when I began working on it, although I added the refs. I'd be okay with removing it, since the info is redundant. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

• • Merge the sections "Skating technique and training" and "Artistry" to "Skating technique and style".
    Note: NEVER use the term "artistry" or derivatives anywhere when talking about figure skating, with exception of crucial direct quotes, particularly because it is one of the most abused terms by figure skating media. Note that the ISU has never used it in any of their official documents themselves. Make sure to clearly break down and describe the skater's skills with the technically correct terms: (1) carriage and dancing skills, (2) choreography and composition skills, (3) skills in (technical) music interpretation (timing, rhythm, pitch changes ...), (4) projection, narration, and acting skills.
    • This would also affect spinoff article Impact of Yuna Kim. @Figureskatingfan, what are your thoughts on this? Artemisia (talk) 15:51, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Done moving sections; main articles templates also changed. What you're saying about the term "artistry" is a valid point, one I've never thought of before. Ya learn something new everyday, right? Artemisia is right; making the changes you're suggesting regarding the technical terms. That's something to tackle later on, though, when we focus on those spinoffs. For now, we should leave the titles and content of those articles alone and leave the main article templates as is. I've changed every instance of the word "artistry" in a non-direct quote throughout the article.

This point brings up another issue for me: when the sources don't analyze skating in those terms, isn't it OR to impose them in WP bios? I mean, we can do as much as we can when we paraphrase, but I think only to a point because it can easily delve into placing our opinions into articles. What do you think about that? Ah, something else to potentially add to the project MOS. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

@Artemisialufkin @Artemisialufkin @Henni147 I'm rather late to the discussion (hadn't realized it had already begun). My comment is solely in regard to Impact of Yuna Kim. I have no problem with the term "Artistry" there. It is not the main article of Figure Skater Yuna Kim. In general, it makes perfect sense when we're talking about the impact of an athlete and their collaboration with a choreographer to be using the term "artistry". It's a term that's indeed used by media, has made its way to common parlance with the figure skating fandom, and for a cultural icon like, she's indeed contributed to Korean culture and arts, that has been discussed in at least one of the articles.

Which reminds me, there was an exhibit where a major artist had painted one of her performances. I need to go find it and add that to the relevant article. Editor120918756 (talk) 09:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

@Editor120918756, @Artemisialufkin The discussion about the term "artistry" in figure skating is interesting, but I don't think that it's something we can (and should) resolve here. Since the sources we're using in this bio uses the term, we should also use it here, regardless of our individual preferences. Ed, remember that we can't use a painting if it isn't free. I'd like to see it, though. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:39, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• • I recommend to bundle the three sections "Impact on figure skating", "Olympic ambassador", and "Media image and impact" as follows:
    Main section title "Legacy and impact" with the sub-sections: (.1) "Impact on figure skating", (.2) "Olympic ambassadorship", (.3) "Media image and impact".
    • Done. Artemisia (talk) 15:41, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
  • I recommend to turn "Personal life" into "Personal life and education" and move the related content from the "Early life" section here. This helps to have a better chronology of events at the beginning of the article and to better distinguish between public and private activities.
    • Done. Artemisia (talk) 15:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
• Detailed results: During the FLC review of Hanyu's career achievements, we were instructed to remove all tables with results prior to the first international junior season. In this case, remove all domestic results in the 6.0 System.
  • Done. Artemisia (talk) 14:51, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

These are my first main perceptions. I will take a more detailed look on the other aspects tomorrow. Henni147 (talk) 20:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@Artemisialufkin: Thank you very much for the quick changes! I will go through them later one-by-one. Here are some more comments on the article structure:

Yes, thanks so much! I appreciate it, since my schedule this week prevented me from addressing this review before today. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

• Table of contents: To keep the TOC at reasonable length, I recommend to add {{TOC limit|3}} after the lead section. I also suggest to skip some of the sub-headings if possible, especially in sections with only one sub-heading (it makes little sense in numeration to have 6.1 when there is no 6.2). You may take a look at the TOC of Hanyu's biography as an example.
  • I've implemented the template. Artemisia (talk) 14:32, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
• Show skating career: I agree that this title may fit better in this special case, indeed. The reason why I suggested to use the division "(1) Early life (2) Competitive skating career (3) Professional skating career" is that there is no overlapping but clean transitions from one section to the next, avoiding time jumps and keeping the life/career summary in chronological order. But yes, it might be laborous to merge all the ice show-related content into the competitive skating career section. I don't mind to keep it like this for the time being.
• Detailed results: Since Yuna has never competed in the +5/-5 GOE System, you can skip that information from the section headings; "Senior level" and "Junior level" should be sufficient. On Hanyu's featured career achievements page, we also used "Junior level" only.
  • Done. Artemisia (talk) 14:32, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

That's it for today. I will tackle the other points of the review tomorrow afternoon. Henni147 (talk) 17:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Response to the "retirement" issue: If Kim has not officially announced her retirement from professional skating yet, we should skip the term "retirement" entirely from her article for the time being and use the format on the right for the infobox. Figure skating journalists labelling professional skaters as "retired" has been a very harmful practice for decades. Pro skaters have a hard time marketing their works because many people misinterpret "retirement" as complete retirement from figure skating and longer follow their careers by mistake. Since Wikipedia is one of the first websites that most people use for quick information about a public person, it is our responsibility to work in favor of the skaters and not make their lives harder. This may not be a big issue in the case of Kim, but we should be consistent in our practice.

Note: I finally completed the work on our project page, so I will be able to fully tackle this A-class review from tomorrow onward. Henni147 (talk) 19:57, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't see this until just now, after my comments and changes about retirement above. I like this idea; changed now. Again, good points; of course, this is one of the attempts to keep the sport elitist and Western, but that's a whole other issue. This attempt in sports in general is something that's in opposition to the values of Wikipedia, something I personally believe we should support as we write about skaters. We've already done that with the proposal change in referring to female skaters as "women" rather than "ladies", years before the sport made the change. Another way is putting up Kim's bio as our project's first A-class assessment. Ah, but I go off-topic. Take your time with continuing the review; I have other things to tackle, too. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:25, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Yuna Kim (Korean: 김연아; born September 5, 1990), also credited in eastern name order as Kim Yuna or Kim Yeon-a, is a South Korean retired figure skater. Known for her well-rounded skills, achievements, popularity, and impact on the sport, she is one of the most highly recognized athletes in South Korea and regarded as one of the greatest figure skaters in history, being commonly referred to as "Queen Yuna". Kim started skating at five years old and competed in women's singles from 2001 to 2014. She is the 2010 Olympic champion, the 2014 Olympic silver medalist, a two-time World champion (2009, 2013) the 2009 Four Continents champion, a three-time Grand Prix Final champion (2006, 2007, 2009), the 2006 World Junior champion, the 2005 Junior Grand Prix Final champion, and a six-time South Korean national champion (2003–2006, 2013, 2014).

Kim never finished off the podium in her competitive career, becoming the first South Korean figure skater to medal at the Olympic Games, World Championships, ISU Grand Prix, and ISU Junior Grand Prix. She is also the first female single skater to complete the Golden Slam (senior level) and the first skater across all disciplines to complete the Super Slam (senior and junior level), having won every major international competition in the course of her career. She is a former record holder in all three competition segments in women's singles under the ISU Judging System, having broken world records 11 times and becoming the first woman to score above 150 points in the free skating and 200 points in the combined total score. Kim is also noted for her rivalry with three-time World champion Mao Asada from Japan, which headlined women's skating for two Olympic cycles until the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi.

After her retirement from competitive figure skating in 2014, Kim was instrumental in the successful bid to bring the 2018 Winter Olympics to her home country in Pyeongchang. She also had a successful professional skating career, producing and appearing in several ice shows like All That Skate. Due to her sponsorships, Kim was one of highest-paid athletes in South Korea, well into her retirement. She was included in the Time magazine's annual list of the World's 100 Most Influential People in 2010 and in several Forbes lists.

Kim was born on September 5, 1990, in Gyeonggi Province, South Korea, in the northern part of the country. The correct transliteration of her name is "Kim Yeon-a" (김연아). However, when Kim applied for a passport, the official misspelled her given name as "Yu-na" (유나) instead of "Yeon-a" (연아). Since her competitive days, she asked international media to refer to her as "Yuna Kim" instead of "Kim Yu-na".

Kim was born to Korean father Kim Hyeon-seok, a business owner, and mother Park Mi-hee. She also has an older sister [named X]. Her mother, whom The Korea Times called "indisputably the No. 1 contributor to Kim's phenomenal success", took an active role in her daughter's skating career from the beginning, driving her to the ice rink each day, attending all of her practices, and acting as her coach, manager, spokesperson, and mentor. She played English cassette tapes in the car to help Kim improve her English skills. Kim's family often struggled to fund her skating expenses; when her father's business was not doing well enough to pay for her lessons, they put up their house as collateral for a bank loan. Kim's father chose to remain out of media attention, choosing to watch her skate on television along with her sister instead of accompanying Kim to international competitions. Both parents, however, attended the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver. Kim credited both of them with her success as a figure skater. She also named American figure skaters Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen as well as Brian Joubert, Stéphane Lambiel, and Tomáš Verner as her influences.

Kim began skating at the age of five at a local rink with her sister. Former ice dancer Ryu Jong-hyun coached Kim between the ages of seven and ten, and former single skater Shin Hea-sook, who competed for South Korea at the 1980 Winter Olympics, guided her between 10 and 12 years old. Kim later said that Ryu and Shin both helped her, from the start of her skating career, to become who she was both technically and spiritually. Ryu suggested to Kim's mother, who noticed early on that there was something special about her daughter's skating, that Kim may receive formal training in figure skating. In an interview from 2011, she gave credit to her coaches for noticing and developing her aptitude for skating, who also told her that "her muscles and body structure are perfect for skating". Kim herself added, "I was born with a good instrument, maybe more so than the talent". Ryu cited Kim's work ethic, especially her hard work, dedication, and commitment to practice for her success. She landed her first triple toe loop jump at the age of 10 and, except for the triple Axel, she was able to perform all types of triple jumps cleanly two years later. During her middle school years, her boots often did not fit her as she matured, suffering many injuries, including a period when she had to rest for a month after a pelvic-muscle injury.

References

I have started my review and here are some points I found till now:

• For consistency, in the lead mention the years in which she won the Grand Prix Final like other championships

Done. Artemisia (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

• The following paragraph in the lead has redundant information. I think it is enough to have the second sentence only

She is the first female skater ever to win every major international competition, namely, the Olympic Games, the World Championships, the Four Continents Championships, and the Grand Prix Final. She is also the first figure skater ever to complete a Super Slam, having won every major senior and junior competition.

They're slightly different achievements so I've left it for now. Artemisia (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Super Slam by definition is winning every major senior and junior international competition which includes the Olympic Games, the World Championships, the Four Continents Championships, and the Grand Prix Final so they are not different achievements.

They are different achievements. The first says that she was the first female skater to win every major senior competition, while the second says that she was the first overall skater to win every major senior and junior competition. Artemisia (talk) 11:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I also think the link to the Super Slam should go directly to the Super Slam section (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(figure_skating)#Super_Slam) instead of the overall Grand Slam page Apqaria (talk) 22:43, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Done. Artemisia (talk) 11:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

• I saw different information about when Yuna started skating so not sure which should be used
  • https://www.goldenskate.com/firsts-keep-coming-for-kim/ (age of six)
  • https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2010/02/113_61510.html (age of six)
  • https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2005/01/31/features/Grace-and-beauty-at-a-price/2524387.html (age of five)
  • https://archive.ph/20120716074035/http://media.daum.net/breakingnews/sports/view.html?cateid=1031&newsid=20090518110807256&p=newsen (age of seven)
• The following sentence in the early life section also has redundant info since this was mentioned in the previous paragraph

In 2010, Philip Hersh reported that when Kim was 7 years old, her family struggled to pay for her skating lessons.

Removed. Artemisia (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

• I saw this reference used when mentioning info about Yuna's parents but I don't see why since it doesn't have much about that and I see the other reference accompanying it is enough to be used.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110822030418/http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2089091,00.html

I've left it in as it says her mother attended all her practices, which isn't explicitly stated in the other source. Artemisia (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

• This reference no longer exist, should be marked as dead

https://www.ifsmagazine.com/yuna-kim-riding-a-golden-wave/

Done. Artemisia (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Apqaria (talk) 22:59, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

@Apqaria I am pretty sure I'd asked this to @Artemisialufkin or someone else (on a different website) once, and they clarified these discrepancies come from the concept of "Korean age". Editor120918756 (talk) 09:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it's due to the Korean age system. She was five when she began skating. Artemisia (talk) 09:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

@Artemisialufkin I can no longer crawl through Yuna's website on archive.org for whatever reason. I'd added the personal statements of her favorite jumps from there, but can no longer find the comment on the wiki page, but I guess the reference no longer exists anyway. Editor120918756 (talk) 09:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification Apqaria (talk) 22:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

@Apqaria, @Artemisialufkin here are my feelings about "Korean age" : I think we should follow the source. Since it's unclear due to how Korean culture counts ages, we should add, "According to...", which I have done. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:47, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan Her age was actually confirmed by her website. I think it was in the article at some point but it must have been removed. Artemisia (talk) 17:10, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Artemisialufkin, then we should add it as a source, done. The website is dead, so I don't think we should add it in her infobox or in the External sources section. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:33, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Artemisialufkin oh here's the q&a about her favorite jumps again. https://web.archive.org/web/20141116094341/http://www.yunakim.com/new2012/eng/about/questions.php

Why did we remove this from the wiki page? Editor120918756 (talk) 06:57, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

More review points

• The following references should be marked as live
  • https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/2016/03/15/figure-skating/choreographer-wilson-regrets-transformative-kims-early-retirement/
  • https://www.goldenskate.com/2006-07-grand-prix-final-ladies-highlights/
  • https://www.goldenskate.com/kim-leads-with-record-score-at-worlds/

Done. Artemisia (talk) 11:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

• While reading the "2006–2007 season: Senior debut and World medal" section (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuna_Kim#2006%E2%80%932007_season:_Senior_debut_and_World_medal) I found the article goes too much into the performances and all elements in it and it is making the section quite lengthy and a bit too much of a read. I don't know if this is the case with other sections as well but I advise trying to revise that if possible focusing more on the results and the highlights of the performances only.

• I noticed that in the Detailed results section, the images are all shown first then the table. Please see the screenshot in the following link (https://imgur.com/a/ctHNXJg)

I am also experiencing this problem. I think it may be an issue with the template. Henni147, do you have any solutions? Artemisia (talk) 11:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I see no problem with the images in the Detailed results section. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it depends on the device screen width used so it might be the reason you can't see it on your device compared to mine. Apqaria (talk) 22:36, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Apqaria (talk) 22:37, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Everyone, my apologies for how long it's taken me to address comments, and thanks to Apqaria for their assistance. I think that I can keep up now, so looking forward to more comments. We need to address the "very long" tag that was placed on the bio this week, although I'm not sure that this is the correct place, so I'm going to address it on the bio's talk page. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Apqaria I agree that the 2006-07 section and some others need some trimming. Editor120918756 (talk) 17:26, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree about the length. As I stated in the bio's talk page, its length is comparable to other major athletes' bio, which have just as much (if not more) detail about their careers and scores. Why is it a problem for figure skaters and not for other athletes, hmm? I'm open to ideas about creating new forked articles, though, if there were good suggestions about how to do it. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:53, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan I don't know about other athletes. I personally don't think we need to go into details for every competition though. Making sure there are enough details about worlds/olympics makes perfect sense, but I'm not sure how much value there is to every grand prix and grand prix final being expanded upon. We could condense those significantly, but that's just my opinion. Editor120918756 (talk) 07:00, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Again, I disagree. That amount of detail tells a story about the elements skaters use, their effectiveness, the progress (or lack thereof) of their programs, and their growth (or decline) as an athlete. Bios of other athletes in other sports go into the same kind of detail; I could give you lots of examples other than Babe Ruth. There's no complaint about the length of his bio on its talk page. Comprehensiveness is one of Wikipedia's values; there's no policy that states we need to account for mobile devices. One of the things this bio does is track Kim's injuries and using sources, implies that her training in Korea contributed to them and most likely held her back. If she had better training and more resources in Korea like Hanyu or Nathan Chen did, she might have accomplished more and remained in the sport longer. That's not said outright in her bio because there are no sources that explicitly state it, but a reader that spends time with a bio with that level of detail and comprehensiveness might get that. Yes, higher-level competitions like Worlds and the Olympics are important, but so are the other competitions. What about the skaters that never make it to the Olympics but are successful nonetheless? One of the weaknesses with figure skating articles and bios is that they lack comprehensiveness, which is one of the reasons so few of them are FAs and GAs. I believe that it's our responsibility to fill in the content gaps, even if it means long articles and bios. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:40, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support to trim and/or split off content. The ideal size for an article to read and navigate comfortably, if you want readers to actually be engaged, is between 6000–9000 words. Once you get past those word counts, the more likely readers will just lose interest and walk away. There appears to be a misconception here that the length of an article (comprehensiveness) somehow equates to quality, and that simply is not true. Longer doesn’t necessarily mean more useful content, it just means more content. Per the Manual of Style, article content should be written succinctly; excessive verbosity is not always a good thing, an article that is too long to read and navigate comfortably is just that, too long to read and navigate comfortably. And at ~13,000 words, or more, readers more than likely are not going to stick around and read Yuna Kim. Isaidnoway (talk) 09:12, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

  @Figureskatingfan Editor120918756 (talk) 19:54, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

  @Editor120918756, @Apqaria: As much as I would like to, this isn't the place to resolve policy issues about the length of articles. I've stated my reasons why this bio is an exception, but you're not considering my arguments, which doesn't help towards obtaining the goal here of improving Kim's bio. I've said above that I'm willing to create some forked articles to decrease the word count and asked for suggestions, so I'll ask again. In the meantime, let's put a hold on this review until this issue is resolved. Thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  Here are some possible solutions:

  • Splitting off the end sections to a list: "Records, achievements, and scores of Yuna Kim," which removes almost 2240 words and would bring the word count to this main bio to over 10,700 words.
  • Yuna Kim Olympic seasons (like in Yuzuru Hanyu). BTW, Hanyu's bio is a little over 10,500 words.
  • Yuna Kim Junior figure skating career: would remove about 850 words.

  Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  Excuse me, but I just now saw all the comments about the article length (which was not exactly my concern in my review comment) so I don't know why you feel I am not considering your arguments.

  Now replying to your concerns, if you read my review comment again I talked about my observation that the section I reviewed go in details of each elements in the program and that it would be better to focus more on the highlights and results (I even saw in other sections that comments about her costume were mentioned which again I think is too much details) So what I suggested is that instead of going in details in almost all the elements we can highlight the elements that was unique to that competition/performance like the ones that were done for the first time or set her apart from other competitors or had impact on the results. I never said to only mention Olympic seasons or not mention the injuries or skip mentioning some competitions!

  I think that what I mentioned doesn't contradict with what you want to achieve about comprehensiveness but actually the opposite because with that readers will focus on the info and elements highlighted instead of getting lost and bored reading about all the elements that they might not even be familiar with. And for more details on the performance and its other elements readers always have the option to check the references.

  And again I stated in my comment to "revise that if possible" since I don't know if the time will permit to do this right away but that could be considered even if not done right away.

  I personally don't see the need to split the competitive content into multiple pages since Yuna's competitive seasons are not that much to begin with and I actually think revising the sections and making them more compact and on point, I think the length will be affected greatly and may not need additional actions. Apqaria (talk) 00:23, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

  @Apqaria, my apologies for the miscommunication; I was directing my statement generally, not to you specifically. About elements details: one of the things that a lot of detail does is to allow readers to compare what elements a skater uses or doesn't use across competitions, and even across seasons. For example, Kim consistently had difficulty with her triple Lutz throughout much of her career. No one source states that, since reporters don't tend to discuss how a skater uses particular elements over seasons, so it needs to be in the content so that readers get that. Also, no reporter goes into an analysis of new elements; they just recite what elements she used in each competition and how well she performed them. Remember, we can't present our analysis or interpretations of programs; we can only present what the sources state. I'm not sure that following your suggestion about tightening up the content will do much to decrease the word count.

  Perhaps forking much of the content will help with the length, although as I've said before, other bios about other prominent athletes in other sports have the same amount of detail and are just as lengthy. I've looked at many of the longer athlete bios, and I've not yet seen any complaint about word count. Can anyone explain to me why it's important for figure skater bios? Is it a gender thing, or are we too concerned that figure skating isn't as popular as other sports like baseball? If it's the latter, perhaps we need to go into detail so that readers know that it's a technical and complicated sport, and that we treat it like the more popular ones.

  I'm not sure what you mean by "Yuna's competitive seasons are not that much to begin with". Are you talking about the possible new "Records, achievements, and scores of Yuna Kim" list? Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:07, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

  Again it is up to us to decide what are the important elements or info to keep. All I am saying is that this needs revision since IMO there is so much details now and as I said in my latest review comments it is not only about the elements.

  About the part "Yuna's competitive seasons are not that much to begin with", No I mean the Competitive skating career section overall. I don't think we need to have a special article about the Olympic seasons or junior career and separate the contents since I still do believe that the revision of content will affect the length. If you compare each season section with other skaters like "Mao Asada" for example the length of each section may actually be the double here in Yuna's article.

  What I suggest is that we start with the revision and then after that we see if such split need to be done based on the length we end up with. Apqaria (talk) 23:04, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

  We could ask @Artemisialufkin's opinion, because tbh I find myself in agreement with Apqaria. I've already stated my opinion before, so some additional voices would be good. Editor120918756 (talk) 09:26, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

  Considering three separate editors have raised concerns about the article length/level of detail, I think it's something we have to take into consideration. Personally, I do see areas that could be condensed. I'm not sure, for example, that we need to mention things like spin levels, which won't mean much to the average reader – we need to remember that we're writing for a lay audience. I also think Apqaria has a point (raised further down) about the overreliance on reporter opinions and speculation. Artemisia (talk) 16:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

  I agree about @Apqaria's point with the speculation from reporters, as well.

  I think we could review it a bit in the next few days. @Artemisialufkin I stand by my point that we could reduce the descriptions of GP/GPF. Not eliminate all of it, but reduce it. And we can keep the lengthier descriptions of worlds/olympics while removing the speculative tone where necessary.

  This is Yuna-specific. I'm genuinely not familiar with how it's gone for other athletes, and personally I feel that's unnecessary to look at. Editor120918756 (talk) 11:31, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

  I agree that the prose is entirely too wordy with far too much detail. As an uninvolved editor (I have only previously worked on the formatting of the tables on this article, but have never touched the prose), I have begun trimming some of it down. My apologies if this upsets anyone, but the sea of numbers and technical details/skating jargon makes much of the prose difficult to understand for a casual reader. Bgsu98 (Talk) 18:14, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

More review points

Before I mention my points, I am again mentioning that I am only focusing in my review on the content of the article not much about any policy or structure issues since I am not that experienced to be fully aware of those. Also please note that like I mentioned when I received the invitation to join this project, I may not be quick in my responses as my time is limited to times on weekends to do this review.

Now, here are my points:

• In the 2007–08 season section, the first sentence (During the off-season during the 2007–08 season,) I find it confusing. I think it is enough to say "During the off-season" since the section itself is about the 2007–08 season also I see that the 2007–08 season page doesn't exist.

• The confusion is that even though the figure skating season runs from July to June, many sources consider the months before senior competitions begin as "the off-season," probably because that's what other sports do. There are lower-level competitions that take place during the summer that aren't televised or streamed, and that's the time when new programs are developed and training takes place. As a result, I changed the phrase to "At the beginning of..." Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:25, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

• In the 2007–08 season section, I don't see the need to mention one of her exhibition programs since the focus here is on the competitions and also it is not consistent to only mention this one while it is not her only exhibition program for the season and also such detail about exhibition programs wasn't mentioned in other seasons.

• Just following the sources. The line about Kim's exhibition program was included here because unfortunately, it was the only source that mentioned it. But I cut it, anyway. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:25, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

• In the 2008–2009 season section, I think it would be better to mention her program's music choices before going into the details of Skate America scores and performances. It would make a better flow of info for the reader. I also think the info about her costume is too much of an info.

• Moved the info about the free skate music up to after the info about the short program. Cut the costume info as per your suggestion, although (and I'm going on the record here), info about costume choice is just as important as music or choreography choices. We should do a project-wide informal poll about if figure skating should have uniforms like other sports. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:25, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

• The following articles should be marked as dead
  • http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn08/CAT002RS.HTM
  • http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/sports/2009/03/600_42177.html
  • http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs_pb_00007232.htm
  • http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs_cr_00007232.htm

All done.

• The following article has restricted access now
  • https://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/sports/othersports/29women.html

Actually, all NYT refs should be marked as restrictive; done.

• This article should be marked as live
  • http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/figureskating/news/story?id=4024682

Done. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:00, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

• Also a general observation which I noticed in the sections I reviewed this time, I think it is better to not over-quote reporters' impressions and speculations in the article in general. I think that will help the article remain neutral and have more compact content. Again this will help with the article length concerns. Examples of this are the following quotes but there are too many others:
  • Rutherford speculated that if she had not faltered on her Axel, she might have scored a personal best.
  • Kang speculated that the judges might have been overly strict in their scoring of Kim's program.

Apqaria (talk) 00:29, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Everyone, I'm thinking about what to do to cut the word count. What do you think about removing Kim's scores, since they can be accessed in both the results table and in the sources? If acceptable, I'll go ahead and do it. More to come. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

If I'm reading correctly, the current word count is 11,487. Bgsu98 (Talk) 19:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with moving the Olympic sections to a new article, if it allows us to retain the length, and also expound upon the scandal (including the brief interlude we had with Sotnikova again in 2023). @Apqaria@Artemisialufkin@Bgsu98@Figureskatingfan

Beyond that, I want the 2006-07 to be somewhat lengthy (I trimmed it to what I believe is appropriate), because it was pivotal in many ways for her.

I am looking at ways to trim the rest. Editor120918756 (talk) 10:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi again, as per the above recommendations, I created a new forked article. (See Yuna Kim Olympic seasons; it's my intention to work more on it later.) The cuts made to this bio has brought it to 9,904 words, within the requested length. I've also removed the too long tag. I'm not entirely happy with it, but I think it satisfies all interested parties. I don't think any more trimming is warranted, though. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

More review points

Sorry that I couldn't do much review in the last couple of weeks but please find my latest comments

• Since now there is a separate article about Yuna's olympic seasons, I think we can merge both 2009–10 season section and 2010 Winter Olympics: Gold medal sub section under "2009–10 season" and make it more compact than it is now.

• The following article should be marked as dead

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/04/136_61499.html

• The following article has restricted access now

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/30/sports/30iht-skating30.html

• The link to the Yuna's Olympics seasons article in the 2013–2014 season section is wrong. It should lead instead to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuna_Kim_Olympic_seasons#2013%E2%80%932014_season:_Olympic_silver_medal and also the link to the olympics related should be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_at_the_2014_Winter_Olympics

Apqaria (talk) 20:44, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@Apqaria, I believe merging the two sections like you're suggesting has already been done. Currently, "2009–10 season: Super Slam" is sub-section 2 and "2010 Winter Olympics: Gold medal" is sub-section 3. It's not clear that the second section is a sub-section of the first one, so perhaps we should re-arrange it this way: "2009–10 season" (sub-section 2) ==> "Super Slam" (sub-section 3) ==> "2010 Winter Olympics: Gold medal" (sub-section 3). Just fixed the above links, thanks for the catches. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:12, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Need for third reviewer

• Everyone, I realize that this review has been languishing because it doesn't have the required third reviewer. If anyone is watching this review and you've never worked on this bio, please consider stepping up. I've asked several reviewers, but no one has even responded. The next step is to go to other projects to request their assistance. Stay tuned; we may need to talk about if two reviewers is adequate to pass this article to A-class. I suppose we should've chosen an article or bio that so many of us have worked on. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:16, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Christine,

Sorry I've not been on wikipedia for a bit. I'd asked @Henni147 if she knew anyone else, but I didn't get a response from her. Editor120918756 (talk) 10:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

@Editor120918756 and everyone, this is beginning to be a problem. I mean, we're not in any hurry and assessments tend to languish, anyway, but it worries me a bit. I'm beginning to think that the summer holidays may be an issue. I've asked several people to review this bio; mostly, I've gotten no responses, with one person rejecting the request. I've also put an appeal on the Women Sports WikiProject talk page, but no responses yet. I'm not yet ready to give up, or at least to make other suggestions. I'd like to give it a little bit more time and ask a couple of editors who haven't contributed that much. Part of the problem is that I'm going through difficulties in my personal life these days, so everything is taking longer to accomplish. I thank you in advance for your flexibility and understanding. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan

I've put your message onto Project Olympics and Project Korea, if you don't mind. Editor120918756 (talk) 06:15, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Not at all, those are good ideas, the more requests the better. Thanks, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:45, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi all, so we got a response from a member of WikiProject Olympics, recommending that we come to a consensus about the quality of this article; see here. I think that we should follow their recommendation, so I'm requesting that the two reviewers User:Henni147 and User:Apqaria complete their assessment and then vote to either pass this article to A-class or not. Thanks and best, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:03, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147 Editor120918756 (talk) 15:46, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan Do you have a way of contacting Henni? she's not responding to me at all. Editor120918756 (talk) 08:56, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

@Editor120918756 I've been in email contact with Henni; she's had some major family issues and difficulties, but has just promised in an email she sent yesterday that she'd come back here to complete the review. Thanks to everyone for your patience and willingness to have this review languish for so long. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:52, 31 August 2024 (UTC)