Wikipedia:Deletion review

Deletion review (DRV) is for reviewing speedy deletions and outcomes of deletion discussions. This includes appeals to delete pages kept after a prior discussion.

If you are considering a request for a deletion review, please read the "Purpose" section below to make sure that is what you wish to do. Then, follow the instructions below.

Purpose

Deletion review may be used:

  1. if someone believes the closer of a deletion discussion interpreted the consensus incorrectly;
  2. if a speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria or is otherwise disputed;
  3. if there were substantial procedural errors in the deletion discussion or speedy deletion (including information of socks participating in the discussion);
  4. if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify undeleting the page, and previously deleted content may be helpful for writing a new version of the page – provided that an administrator declined undeleting the page and their decision is being challenged;
  5. if a page has been wrongly deleted with no way to tell what exactly was deleted;
  6. if the deleted page cannot be recreated because of preemptive restrictions on creation that cannot be removed without a consensus after removal was requested and declined. Such restrictions include creation protection and title blacklisting.

Deletion review should not be used:

  1. if the page was deleted on grounds which permits summary undeletion: place such requests at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion. Deletion review can be used if such a request is declined. (Undeletion may also be requested there for pages which are not explicitly eligible for summary undeletion, but such a request is usually declined; it is worth trying when substantial new sources have arisen after an article was deleted.)
  2. to ask for permission to write a new version of a page which was deleted, unless a preemptive restriction on creation is in place for which removal was requested and declined. In the case of:
  3. because of a disagreement with the deletion discussion's outcome that does not involve the closer's judgment (a page may be renominated after a reasonable timeframe);
  4. to repeat arguments already made in the deletion discussion;
  5. to argue technicalities (such as a deletion discussion being closed ten minutes early);
  6. to point out other pages that have or have not been deleted (as each page is different and stands or falls on its own merits);
  7. to challenge an article's deletion via the proposed deletion process, or to have the history of a deleted page restored behind a new, improved version of the page, called a history-only undeletion (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these);
  8. to request that previously deleted content be used on other pages (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these requests);
  9. to attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias (such requests may be speedily closed);
  10. to request that copyright violations, libelous, or otherwise prohibited content be restored.

Instructions

Steps to list a new deletion review

Before listing a review request, please:

  1. Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
  2. Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.
  3. Be aware that requests which appear to be written by large-language models will normally be summarily denied. Write in your own words.
  4. Disclose any paid editing relationships or other conflicts of interest you have related to the subject you are appealing about, if you haven't already.
 
1.

Click here and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the page, xfd_page with the name of the deletion discussion page (leave blank for speedy deletions), and reason with the reason why the discussion result should be changed. For media files, article is the name of the article where the file was used, and it shouldn't be used for any other page. For example:

{{subst:drv2
|page=File:Foo.png
|xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png
|reason=
}} ~~~~
2.

Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:

{{subst:DRV notice|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~
3.

For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach <noinclude>{{Delrev|date=2026 October 26}}</noinclude> to the top of the page under review to inform current editors about the discussion.

4.

Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion:

  • If the deletion discussion's subpage name is the same as the deletion review's section header, use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2026 October 26}}</noinclude>
  • If the deletion discussion's subpage name is different from the deletion review's section header, then use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2026 October 26|page=SECTION HEADER AT THE DELETION REVIEW LOG}}</noinclude>
 

Commenting in a deletion review

Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:

Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted:

Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate. Deletion review is facilitated by succinct discussions of policies and guidelines; long or repeated arguments are not generally helpful. Rather, editors should set out the key policies and guidelines supporting their preferred outcome.

The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.

The usage of large language models such as ChatGPT to create deletion review nominations or comments is strongly discouraged and such contributions are liable to be removed or collapsed by an uninvolved administrator.

Temporary undeletion

Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{temporarily undeleted}} template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.

Closing reviews

A nominated page that requires a community consensus decision should remain on deletion review for at least seven days (unless the nomination was a proposed deletion). In such cases, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists after seven days. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented.

If the administrator closes the deletion review as no consensus, the outcome should generally be the same as if the decision was endorsed. However:

Ideally, all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly. But, in cases where the outcome is patently obvious, it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)

Early closes
  • An objection to a proposed deletion can be processed immediately as if it were a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion.
  • Where the deletion discussion has reopened or changed, either by the closer of the deletion discussion or by an uninvolved administrator who has vacated a procedurally invalid non-administrative close, and nobody has endorsed. In this case, the deletion review may be speedily closed as overturned or relisted as appropriate. The closer should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
  • Where the nominator of a DRV has withdrawn their nomination, and no one has recommended any outcome but endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so for them).
  • Where the closer of a deletion discussion acknowledges that their close was wrong, and no one has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
  • Discussions may be closed without result if they are entirely disruptive. (e.g. disruptive or sockpuppet nominations, repeated nominations of the same page, a large language model is used to construct the request, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "procedural close".

Active discussions

26 October 2026

Galle Grid Substation

Galle Grid Substation (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|revisions|restore)

The article is about one of the most important electrical substations in Sri Lanka. It has recently gained more press coverage due to Sri Lanka's first and largest BESS system being installed at the same premises. The article is well written and sourced, and in my opinion well Wikipedia-worthy. The BESS facility warrants its own article (as other BESS facility articles on Wikipedia), but I feel this combined article compliments a better coverage of the subjects, instead of having two separate articles. This was my response to alleged AI-use. For what it's worth: I work in the energy industry, and have been writing about the subjects since 2008. Rehman 03:45, 26 October 2026 (UTC)

  • As an admin you should really know better than to file a DRV contaning only AfD-round-2 arguments. Endorse * Pppery * it has begun... 06:11, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse - The closer correctly assessed consensus, and the appellant doesn't identify any error by the closer. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:43, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse and TROUT the admin appellant for an appeal that ignores DRVNOT#3 and #4. Owen× ☎ 10:05, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse the concerns raised about the article AI usage, the AfD, and now this DRV concern me given the fact the user is an administrator. Several lines have been crossed. SportingFlyer T·C 10:16, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
  • OP comment: Apologies if it sounded otherwise, but just to be clear, I am not implying the closing user made an incorrect decision, the AFD was incorrect, or anything of such. I'm just trying to save that article which I think is clearly encyclopedic. This is my first DRV, hence please excuse for my lapses. Rehman 11:27, 26 October 2026 (UTC)

Hurricane Marie (2026)

Hurricane Marie (2026) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|revisions|restore)

Many of the people saying merge did so before the article was expanded, and a relist was probably more appropriate in this instance.~2026-57013-66 (talk) 02:45, 26 October 2026 (UTC)

  • Endorse (involved) - The appellant says that the article was expanded after some of the votes were cast. That is true but misleading. The expansion of the article was by sockpuppets, and the closer had no obligation to consider the improper expansion. Also, the close was correct. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:51, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
  • DRV nominator appears blocked. SportingFlyer T·C 09:06, 26 October 2026 (UTC)

24 October 2026

300-page iPhone bill

300-page iPhone bill (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|revisions|restore)

During the discussion, there was a consensus that the subject meets GNG and a disagreement among editors whether it should remain as a standalone page, with 8 supporting retention and 7 preferring merge. The discussion was closed as "merge selectively" because Keep participants failed to address the merge rationale. The nominator (and 3 "per nom") provided three reasons for their proposal, WP:INDISCRIMINATE, disagreement with article content, and that There is nothing demonstrating this needs to be talked about outside the context of the streamer, the last one not being a substantive argument that can be addressed. The closer discounted Keep !votes that appealed to the sources, weighting them less than mostly opinion-based Merge !votes. This is contrary to the general approach to Wikipedia in which source-based positions should be given preference over personal opinions of editors. Merge discussions in general should be less formulaic than delete discussions, and the views of editors on whether it is appropriate to merge shouldn't be dismissed without a good cause, and there was none. For WP:NOPAGE to be applicable, it is necessary for the nominator to convince participants that a merge is desirable. If they fail to do so, as happened here, a merge shouldn't be done. This discussion should be overturned to no consensus. Kelob2678 (talk) 22:23, 24 October 2026 (UTC)

  • Overturn to keep Merge !votes are mostly PERNOM, which is an entirely an incorrect NOT argument: Nothing about WP:INDISCRIMINATE applies--or, at the very least, a clear explanation of which of the four specific criteria applies is lacking. The article, at the time of closure, demonstrates RS'ing for other exceptionally sized phone bills, making it a reasonable topic for a standalone article, even if that doesn't overcome the SUSTAINED hurdle... that wasn't argued in the nomination, and the presence of the section demonstrates that There is nothing demonstrating this needs to be talked about outside the context of the streamer or History of the iPhone#Oversized bills. was an objectively false statement, as the targeted section was already the summary style parent of the more detailed and GNG-passing article. Thus, with no policy-based reason for deletion, just PAGEDECIDE pernoms, I see no basis for a merge or no consensus outcome. Very disappointing discussion all around, and demonstrating what I would consider an inappropriate general bias towards merger on the part of the nom, participants, and closer. Jclemens (talk) 23:09, 24 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Overturn to Keep (uninvolved) per Jclemens. When this AfD was brought up in an argument in an unrelated DRV, I wasn't convinced at all that this AfD decision to Merge was the correct one, and seeing it brought to DRV reinforces my concern. WP:PAGEDECIDE calls for "specific considerations about how to make the topic understandable", and Keep !voters addressed that question by arguing that the article was independently understandable and that merging would create undue weight. Digital folklorist 23:21, 24 October 2026 (UTC)
    When this AfD was brought up in an argument in an unrelated DRV, I wasn't convinced at all that this AfD decision to Merge was the correct one. Personally, I decided to bring it here, when after the AfD was closed as merge, FaviFake posted at the talk of the previous closer, See? An admin found consensus to merge because they weighted the different arguments based on how rooted in policy they were, as if the whole exercise was about policy-based analysis and not challenging closures until the AfD is closed by an admin with a shared POV on these discussions. Kelob2678 (talk) 00:18, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
I'm not going to vote since I participated in this AfD, but I will say I was very surprised to see a merge close here. The application of NOPAGE in merge discussions appears to have been misused, not only in this AfD but others too. Katzrockso (talk) 00:33, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Comment I had closed this as consensus against a merger and relisted when the close was queried. It has now been closed as merge and that outcome has been queried-both absolutely in good faith by established editors. This is a no win situation. Star Mississippi 01:25, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    Looking through the AfD page history, this is actually the fourth time someone has closed this AfD: "not merged", "not merged", "no consensus", "merge selectively". Left guide (talk) 01:41, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    Is that a record? I certainly don't recall that level of advocacy for merges before. It seems curious that so much hate would be directed at a sufficiently sourced article. It seems disproportionate for people to advocate so passionately that this needs to go away--I simply fail to see why it is such a big deal. Is it being discussed off-wiki or something? Jclemens (talk) 03:23, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    the three previous discussions were many years ago Spartaz Humbug! 10:33, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    Jclemens was referring to the four closures of this discussion, not the four AfD discussions. FaviFake (talk) 12:42, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    Aha. Thanks for the correction - I guess it because this is the 4th nomination. 2 NACs that clearly didn't weigh votes and an admin agreeing to let the discussion breathe. Spartaz Humbug! 13:15, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    That's right--in all my years of debating deletion, I don't recall seeing three separate closers talked out of their closures. Seeing three AfDs, especially when the first few are pre-2010, isn't that uncommon; RENOM hasn't always been a thing. Jclemens (talk) 21:02, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    I date the documented history from User:Rossami 14:34, 29 September 2004. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:55, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Self-endorse. I went over the AfD again, in light of Jclemens's harsh criticism and accusation of "inappropriate general bias". I think his latest reply to Left guide demonstrates the crux of the issue. I do not see this alleged so much hate for the topic. The highly experienced editors, including two admins, !voting Merge or Selective merge were not advocating that this needs to go away. A merge discussion is a debate about where the content belongs, not whether it does.
    This is a common misunderstanding. Three weeks ago, an admin chided a nom for bringing a merge proposal to AfD, seven months after we collectively decided to combine both venues. Perhaps Spartaz was right in saying PAM should have never been merged into AfD. Too many editors still respond to a merge nomination as if it is a call for deletion, and "defend" the article with arguments of notability, which wasn't contested in the AfD at bar.
    Looking at the AfD again, I see five guideline-based arguments for a merge, and two supporting them. Contra those, I see two P&G-based arguments against merger, in this case citing UNDUE, and six votes opposing the merge purely based on notability, without addressing the actual question of NOPAGE or why we need two pages to cover one topic (or three pages, if you count History of the iPhone#Oversized bills). Decades of deletion debates resulted in many editors seeing a standalone page as an award a subject wins for being notable, without considering whether our readers would benefit from seeing the content on a separate page, rather than in a broader context of another page. NOPAGE isn't an "inappropriate bias"; along with MERGEREASON, it's how the community chose to adjudicate merge discussions. NOPAGE was deliberately written as a section under WP:N to explain that notability is not sufficient to retain a standalone page. Owen× ☎ 09:32, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    Spartaz was right I just want to endorse this part which I have taken entirely out of context Spartaz Humbug! 10:32, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    NOPAGE wasn't argued until after the second relist, and the first time it shows up in the discussion it's FaviFake talking about it as if it was part of the nom, later explicitly stating that it was (The fundamental WP:PAGEDECIDE argument was mentioned in the nomination statement), when it was not. In fact, FaviFake seems to be the singular editor arguing from that basis. OwenX appears to have read the whole discussion, glommed on to one argument made late by one editor and refuted by two others, and SUPERVOTEd as if that had been an unanswered question all along. The argument was INDISCRIMINATE, not NOPAGE, and unless there's some massive page history shenanigans gone on that I haven't dived into, the closer's reading of the arguments at play is fatally flawed. Jclemens (talk) 20:52, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    And indeed, the nomination itself received less weight than the !votes from Bearian, Sandstein, FaviFake, and Fences and windows. FaviFake certainly articulated the P&G basis best, but I don't see the !votes from Sandstein or from Fences and windows as making a substantively different argument. I disagree with you that refuting the nomination is enough to ensure a contrary result, or even a N/C close. But even if we take your extreme position that the INDISCRIMINATE nom and the two "per nom" should be discounted, we're still left with three solid arguments based on NOPAGE, versus two rather weak UNDUE claims who haven't explained why the issue cannot be overcome by being more selective in the merging, and six irrelevant "meets GNG" votes that added nothing to the debate. Jishara, the stronger of the two opposing merge based on an actual guidelines, made the bizarre claim that even a paragraph or two may cause undue weight, and declined to explain when asked why two paragraphs about one of this YouTuber's most famous videos, in a 3,000-word article about her, would be "UNDUE". So giving full weight even to the two "undue" !votes is a stretch, but I still counted them as meritorious, albeit weak.
    Your accusation of SUPERVOTE is odd. I have no views about the article. I didn't even read it or the proposed target. Instead of spending 40 minutes carefully evaluating the P&G strength of each !vote, it would have been far easier for me to just close it as "no consensus" based on nose-count. Although as Star Mississippi points out, such a close would have likely also been challenged here at DRV, and in that case--rightly so. Owen× ☎ 21:59, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    Allow me to clarify: My complaint of SUPERVOTE isn't in regards to the topic, which I agree neither you nor I care about, but about the presumption that a NOPAGE argument is by default a P&G based argumentation for merger that must be rebutted in order for an article to be kept. It's not. It's one editor's opinion, and "I disagree"--which is implied in a "meets GNG" !vote--is a sufficiently equally policy based reason to counteract that opinion. By starting from that assumption, your view of the entire debate is skewed inappropriately in favor of the nomination. Consider this thought experiment: one editor in good standing opens a NOPAGE-argued merge discussion and after a week no other editor has commented pro or con. Do we treat that as a soft merge, or simply note that one editor's merge opinion is not supported by the community? I'm sorry you wasted your time here, but had you not inappropriately weighted the INDISCRIMINATE (which didn't apply) and NOPAGE (which is just an opinion) arguments and instead just counted noses you would have come to the correct conclusion--there was no consensus to merge. Out of curiosity, were you aware of the three previous closure attempts? I suspect not, hence my follow up question: How would your analysis been different had you seen three other closers attempt to close this merge discussion and be talked out of it? Jclemens (talk) 22:25, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    So it's not so much a SUPERVOTE in our conventional sense of wanting to see a certain outcome, but more of a claim I misunderstand or misinterpret NOPAGE to give it more weight than it deserves, or at least more weight than other sections of that guideline, such as GNG, in merge debates. In the end, we have one group of editors essentially saying, "readers would benefit from seeing this content alongside a more general article", and another group saying, "no, because this content is notable". Not "no, because it's clearer by itself", or "no, because the combined article would be too long and unwieldy". Just "no, because sources say it is notable". One of those is an editorial opinion anchored in our guidelines. The other is a valid argument aginst deletion, but tells us nothing about where the content belongs.
    Here's another thought experiment: an editor starts a discussion at Talk:Boston Tea Party, proposing changing the spelling in the article from American- to British English spelling, citing some section of MOS:ENGVAR or an old RfC. This gets support from a few others, but fierce objection from editors claiming that spelling should not be changed because the topic passes GNG. Yes, it clearly passes GNG, but how is that relevant to the question of spelling? Those opposing the change are obviously against it, but absent a valid argument anchored in P&G, should they simply get weight on a nose-counting basis? "Oppose merge per GNG/LASTING" is an invalid argument that claims nothing but a personal preference. It's the merge equivalent of the deletion debate ILIKEIT. It doesn't even argue an editorial preference; it merely states a fact that is correct but irrelevant. If we are to close merge discussions based on vote count, I bet Novem Linguae could write a bot that saves us admins the trouble, and closes them automatically. We already elect admins this way.
    As to your question, I was aware Star Mississippi previously closed it, since she mentioned it in her 2 October relisting notice. I wasn't aware of the other two attempted closes at the time, and seeing them wouldn't have changed my analysis. Seeing those now, I salute the two NACs for promptly self-reverting their close when it was legitimately contested. Owen× ☎ 23:40, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    P.S.: I'd be happy to continue this on your Talk page or mine. I generally refrain from voicing my opinion at DRVs against my closes, and I already feel like I'm BLUDGEONing this one. Owen× ☎ 23:44, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    I am reading and still digesting this exchange with interest. It’s nuanced, complicated, possibly important. My feeling at this time is that I wouldn’t go for the negatively nuanced “Supervote”, but instead might say that OwenX has a slight bias to wanting to be decisive, and that this is typical of experienced active admins. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:54, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    Thank you, SmokeyJoe. Yes, I recognize that trait in me. Seeing how often I close AfDs as N/C, I think I keep it in check. But this feedback is certainly useful. Owen× ☎ 00:01, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
    Ok, I'll grant that "Supervote" is probably the wrong term for my objection here, but what should I have said instead? Genuine question. Jclemens (talk) 06:02, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
    I think SmokeyJoe's description of it as a slight bias towards decisiveness is more accurate, not to mention less culpatory. Owen× ☎ 09:36, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
    I am not sure how you read Sandstein's !vote "We should do so here: this is fundamentally a rather trivial human interest story of no lasting importance whatsoever, and merits a brief mention at best" as "readers would benefit from seeing this content alongside a more general article". You can equally assume that Keep !voters said "readers would benefit from seeing this content in a separate article." Kelob2678 (talk) 00:13, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
    As far as I can tell, every comment made against merging after the second relist (when PAGEDECIDE was first cited) does separately address the question of PAGEDECIDE. While "it passes GNG" isn't an applicable argument to PAGEDECIDE, it is absolutely relevant as a response to NOTINDISCRIMINATE. While the strengths of the respective arguments is under scrutiny here, I'm puzzled that you seem to have arrived at the conclusion that all arguments against merging were exclusively predicated on GNG. Kisseran (talk) 00:14, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
    Again, invalidating the nom is not enough to reject a deletion or merge, when other participants raise valid arguments in favour of the deletion or merge. If your entire argument is based on the nom being wrong, I can see why you'd be confused. Also, not all arguments against merging were exclusively predicated on GNG. Two were based on UNDUE, albeit with questionable basis. I already elaborated on that. Please read my previous replies to avoid repeating questions or points that were already addressed. Owen× ☎ 00:24, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
    Perhaps exclusively was the wrong word there, you're right. I had read your previous replies, and I found it puzzling that you still decided to characterize opposers of merging as making the argument of GNG in the absence of other arguments. In the end, every voter who opposed merging by referencing GNG alone opposed before the second relist, when GNG was a relevant argument against what was the singular cited policy in favor of merging at the time. Kisseran (talk) 00:49, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
    GNG was never a relevant argument in that AfD, neither for nor against merging. Owen× ☎ 00:55, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
    Yes, it is. Passing the GNG means that the subject is presumed to merit a standalone article. Per NOPAGE, there are times when subjects that are notable are better covered within other articles, but the presumption is that a notable topic receives its own page.
    On Wikipedia, notability is a test used by editors to decide whether a given topic warrants its own article
    Merely pointing to NOPAGE without any argument as to why it might apply is an equally vacuous argument as "don't merge, passes GNG". Katzrockso (talk) 02:27, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
    Three editors actually mentioned undue weight in their opposition to the merge, not two. Katzrockso (talk) 00:20, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
Endorse once you significantly down weight the votes from 2 users who consistently vote to keep everything regardless of the policy or context you have a much clearer consensus. Spartaz Humbug! 10:31, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
Rechecked my biases and it's only 2 who really should be downgraded. Spartaz Humbug! 10:44, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Overturn to no consensus. Hours before Star Mississippi closed it as not merged on October 2, I had closed it as not merged. At that time, the last comment was from September 26, and all three comments since the first relist had made policy-based arguments against merging, and those comments were not addressed by supporters for merging. The opening statement broadly made three arguments: WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE, concerns about factual accuracy, and that there's nothing that preclude a merge. All three of these arguments are addressed in the oppose votes. Thus, I felt comfortable closing it as not merged. I was then approached on my talk page by the nominator, who contested my close as a BADNAC on the basis that one other person has supported the merge, and that This would almost certainly be a no consensus rather than not merged if closed as-is. Upon some consideration and rereading the discussion, I was inclined to agree. The nominator had made an evidently and obviously irrelevant reference to NOTINDISCRIMINATE, but nobody on either side had made convincing arguments within the purview of WP:PAGEDECIDE (and it seemed reasonable not to exclude that from consideration merely because it had not been explicitly cited). "It would be undue weight" and "it wouldn't be undue weight" are both assertions relevant to PAGEDECIDE, but they are hardly substantive arguments. After the second relist, there was a very numerically close divide between supporters and opposers of merging, with neither side managing to convince anyone on the other side of the correct application of PAGEDECIDE to the article. Toward the end of the discussion, two editors brought up WP:SUSTAINED, and one source from 2026 was provided in response. At the end of the discussion, I don't see any consensus emerging, if that wasn't apparent enough from the fact that we are reviewing the fourth close of the fourth AfD on this article. Kisseran (talk) 11:12, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    With respect, your close could only have been arrived at by counting votes or weighing every vote equally and overlooks the two editors who always vote to keep everything. There clearly was no consensus at the point you closed this and a close look at contributions after Star Mississippi relisted it shows a much better quality of argument and adherence to policy in formulating opinions. Spartaz Humbug! 13:09, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    I'd just like to point out that arguments made editors who always vote to keep everything have just as much weight as those made by editors who often !vote differently on different AfDs. I almost always !vote to merge at AfD, but that does not mean that my (or others') arguments should be discarded. I really hope you don't take an editor's !vote history into consideration when you close discussions yourself.
    The point is that the "keep" arguments were weaker than the "merge" arguments in this specific case. If the arguments made by the editors who always vote to keep everything had been stronger for this specific article, then they would've weighted more. FaviFake (talk) 13:37, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    In my initial close, I in fact weighed the merge votes less than the oppose votes. The only explicitly policy-based argument in the opening statement was an appeal to NOTINDISCRIMINATE, which was evidently irrelevant, and Bearian, who made the only other merge vote, made no attempt at argumentation whatsoever. I have already conceded that my close as not merged at the time was misjudged, but the fact that Star Mississippi closed it again as not merged after the nominator made an additional response would make me hesitate in saying that "there was clearly no consensus". In any case, that's not the closure being reviewed here, and I struggle to see how consensus has emerged since the second relist. Kisseran (talk) 13:36, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    That's exactly where you are wrong. Editors who consistently vote against policy and consensus at AFD cannot be given the same weight as someone formulating an argument based on policy and guidance. That's exactly why we have ROUGH CONSENSUS and not a vote count. Spartaz Humbug! 13:46, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    Sorry, did you intend to reply to the comment above? I'm not sure how this relates to my own remarks. Kisseran (talk) 16:18, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    You mean like citing WP:INDISCRIMINATE or WP:TNT with WP:VAGUEWAVEs not actually supported by the underlying reference? I agree. I wish we did more of that, actually. We have too many editors who indiscriminately think everything is INDISCRIMINATE. Jclemens (talk) 20:39, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    This is a confused reply - is this insinuating that irrespective of the actual arguments in the AfD, closers should downweight the !votes of editors who in the past have made arguments contrary to policy and consensus, or that they should simply follow the normal interpretation of WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS, which is to evaluate the arguments that are actually contained within the AfD? Katzrockso (talk) 21:27, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse this was a difficult but excellent close. No notes. SportingFlyer T·C 11:22, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse. I had considered spending a few minutes writing a comment about this specific AfD, but based on the "overturn" rationales above (especially comments like "It seems curious that so much hate would be directed at a sufficiently sourced article. It seems disproportionate for people to advocate so passionately that this needs to go away--I simply fail to see why it is such a big deal."), I have decided to simply copy and paste verbatim this section of Wikipedia:Notability, with additional emphasis supplied and irrelevant parts removed:

    When creating new content about a notable topic, editors should consider how best to help readers understand it. Often, understanding is best achieved by presenting the topic on a dedicated standalone page, but it is not required that we do so; at times it is better to cover a notable topic as part of a larger page about a broader topic, with more context (and doing so in no way disparages the importance of the topic). Editorial judgment goes into each decision about whether or not to create a separate page, but the decision should always be based upon specific considerations about how to make the topic understandable, and not merely upon personal likes or dislikes.

    • Does other information provide needed context? Sometimes, a notable topic can be covered better as part of a larger article, where there can be more complete context that would be lost on a separate page. [...] One should particularly consider due and undue weight. Fringe theories, for example, may merit standalone pages but have undue weight on a page about the mainstream concept.
    • Do related topics provide needed context? Sometimes, several related topics, each of them similarly notable, can be collected into a single page, where the relationships between them can be better appreciated than if they were each a separate page [...]. Other times, when many similar notable topics exist, it is impractical to collect them into a single page, because the resulting article would be too unwieldy. In that case, a viable option is creating a new list or category for the broader topic and linking to the individual articles from it (as with Category:Restaurants in New York City).

    [...]

    When a standalone page is created, it can be spun off from a broader page. Conversely, when notable topics are not given standalone pages, redirection pages and disambiguation can be used to direct readers searching for such topics to the appropriate articles and sections.

    FaviFake (talk) 12:03, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    This is not the first time you have edited a section of policy and then used that section of edited policy to support your position in a discussion. It comes across as manipulative at best. Katzrockso (talk) 12:43, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    Looking at the page's history, I have boldly edited that section exactly two times, and the second edit was unambiguously descriptive, not prescriptive. If you genuinely think those minor edits change the meaning of the section then honestly I don't know what to say. FaviFake (talk) 12:52, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    I think taking out a reference to NOTPAPER is absolutely slanting that page a certain direction, and any edits to a guideline you're citing should be accompanied by a courtesy notification along the lines of "Yes, I edited this in the past week (link). As you can see, it has nothing to do with this argument" to avoid the appearance of impropriety or partisan editing. Jclemens (talk) 20:59, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Overturn to No consensus. While it was established “ notability is a required condition for a standalone article, but not a sufficient one”, this means that the 300 page bill event notability is not a reason to not merge, this seems to have morphed into a baseless reason to merge. There were many reasons to not merge offered, including long term significant and continuing coverage, and they were not refuted, not by strength of argument, and not by the numbers. I also think there is too much from FaviFake, in the new process implements, Wikipedia talk about merge process, the merge discussion, and now here. While one person may participate at every venue, they should not be counted separately for every venue. The FaviFake bias that I think needs concern is supremacy of rules and processes over editors opinions.
    I began leaning towards “endorse per admin discretion”, but that admin discretion is for rough consensus closing of discussions that are dragging on and need a decision. That did not apply here, because there was no case that there is a problem with the status quo, with the nom’s “the article fails WP:INDISCRIMINATE” being unsupported by others, and counted by pointers to ongoing coverage. Merge proposals do not carry the importance of deletion proposals, the AfD time limits should not be forced onto merge discussions for twenty year old articles. SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:03, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    On reading the discussions twice more, my criticism goes first to the merge nomination. Nominations are the most important !vote, and bad nominations are the usual cause of trainwreck discussions. The AfD merge discussion was indeed a trainwreck noting four different closes and us all being here. My criticism of the nomination is that the page nominated did not come remotely close to meeting the WP:NOT policy WP:INDISCRIMINATE, and if it did, editing the remove the indiscriminate information should come first, with deletion second. The second criticism is the raising of two possible merge targets, which is the tossing of an open question into a crowd, it is not yet a worthy formal proposal.
    I also believe that the flow of the discussion is very important to note, and I not the abscence of late end support for merging. After the last relist of 10:27, 11 October 2026, I see a Keep, two w very weak selective merges, a Keep, and a final Merge whose argument is refuted is the last post, reading at face value. Where the close is despite the last post, I think it deserves comment in the close.
    References were made to the “guideline” PAGEDECIDE and NOPAGE. Despite being on Wikipedia:Notability, a {{guideline}} tagged page, the section is advice not guidance, meaning that arguments “per PAGEDECIDE” or “per NOPAGE” are flawed. The section does not contain criteria for merging or not merging, and the dot points it has do not apply to a topic that has received a recent rush of new coverage, of the event squarely itself, of its importance in the history of the iPhone, and of its importance in the history of YouTube.
    The proposal to merge was not meet with a concensus in agreement, and there was absolutely no imperative (eg arguments of damage) to act without consensus. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:26, 26 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Overturn to no consensus. 8 keep to 7 merge with decent arguments on both sides (imo the merge ones are weaker), I don't know how you'd close that as merge. PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:46, 26 October 2026 (UTC)

22 October 2026

Template:Far-right politics sidebar

Template:Far-right politics sidebar (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|revisions|restore)

In this sidebar, preserved here, which had the corollary article Far-right politics, there were many articles included within it that explicitly have "far-right" in their titles:

In it were other articles like Right-wing dictatorship that also clearly belonged, despite not explicitly saying "far-right" in their titles.

Can we honestly say that all of these articles are not clearly enough related to warrant a sidebar connecting them together? I believe this sidebar was deleted in violation of WP:BEFORE (If proposing deletion, consider whether the article could be improved instead), that any issues that purportedly existed regarding bidirectionality should have been addressed in a way that was more productive than by starting a deletion discussion (which seems like it was really reaching), and that a review of the deletion is warranted so that we may re-open the discussion to others for further consideration, especially considering the weak nature of the consensus formed for deletion.

If you want the truth I am a bit uncomfortable with how the deletion, started by User:PARAKANYAA, was replied to by User:Sirfurboy 6 hours later. I am going to assume these two editors, who have been going from sidebar to sidebar making mass WP:BIDI deletions and defending those deletions on the sidebar talk pages, are purely interested in keeping our sidebars tight and on topic. That being the case, there appears to be an understanding among them that WP:BIDI can now be aggressively applied beyond the norm to take down any sidebar they don't like (either to damage it in part or to remove it in whole), because no sidebar in Wikipedia follows these standards so stringently.

We need to be reasonable with our deletions. And the consensus that has been reached in this discussion exceeds reason. Alexandraaaacs1989 (talk) 15:14, 22 October 2026 (UTC)

  • Endorse (involved) - DRV is not for a re-run of the arguments. The discussion, on the raw numbers was 2:1 for deletion, and I will refrain from commenting on the arguments, as I was involved, but clearly I felt the arguments were good enough. Also to note that of the four "keeps", one was the template creator, one was a now blocked editor who was seems to have been using LLMs to create, among other things, sidebar templates, and one was an editor with just 56 edits. Although low edits or being the creator does not rule out an opinion, there is no demonstrable weak nature of the consensus formed for deletion. I am also uncomfortable that someone is uncomfortable with me taking part in a discussion that I found organically because the SIDEBAR was added to an inappropriate page that I was watching. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:21, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
Endorse (involved). Not everything needs a sidebar per WP:SIDEBAR. Deciding we don't want a visual cruft box for every topic is well within reason.
If you want the truth I am a bit uncomfortable with how the deletion, started by User:PARAKANYAA, was replied to by User:Sirfurboy 6 hours later. [...] these two editors, who have been going from sidebar to sidebar making mass WP:BIDI deletions and defending those deletions on the sidebar talk pages This template was placed onto numerous articles I watchlisted. The implication that you are making, I suppose, is that me and Sirfurboy are secretly colluding in order to destroy sidebars, or something? Whether that is or is not what you are thinking - not so! I am upfront in my dislike of sidebars. The vast majority of sidebars are bad. I think the encyclopedia is better off without them yeah. But that I think they're bad doesn't mean that them being violative of the only guidelines on them we have is in any way acceptable. This one in particular was very bad. People who care about article subjects are likely to vote about them. And it's not like Sirfurboy and I are always in agreement (see our disputes on reference formatting... on NAUTHOR.... etc) And we were only 2 of many editors in that discussion. PARAKANYAA (talk) 17:05, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
Endorse – Strong arguments on both sides, so it basically comes down to the numbers. FaviFake (talk) 20:04, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse (uninvolved). The Keep argument that far-right politics extends beyond fascism may have been relevant, but did not by itself answer the concerns of overly broad scope and misleading grouping/duplication. Listing some unquestionably relevant articles shows that a narrower template might be possible, but does not establish that this closure was erroneous. Digital folklorist 21:18, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Comment The rationale suggests it was recently created. Can I hear how long it had existed without asking for an undeletion for review? Thanks. Jclemens (talk) 21:53, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
    @Jclemens: Somehow, the main public log isn't showing any creations or moves, but looking at the deleted history, this template was created in draftspace on September 18, 2026, then moved to template namespace by a different editor as an accepted AfC submission four days later. Left guide (talk) 22:20, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
    Moves are logged only at the source page, and they show up fine there. The revisions link in the header shows the creator and creation timestamp properly, if not prettily. —Cryptic 22:33, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
    Thanks, folks! I'm going to endorse with the caveat that my threshold for deletion for sidebars or navboxes varies by duration, and I might have wanted more of a definitive consensus if this had been existence for, say, five years. One month? The consensus here is plenty for it to depart. Jclemens (talk) 22:37, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Folks, there's no need for the "involved" and "uninvolved" tags. The tfd's linked right there in the header; we can all see who commented in it already. Not that it makes a difference either way. —Cryptic 22:33, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
    Seems like more of a courtesy thing, making less work for the DRV closer. Just my 2c. Left guide (talk) 22:38, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
    For the record, I'm uninvolved! FaviFake (talk) 12:14, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse the close was an accurate reading of the consensus. The discussion was open almost a month so a relist is unlikely to have changed anything. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:39, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse the close as reflecting consensus. DRV is not TFD round 2. Robert McClenon (talk) 11:35, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse (involved): I see nothing in the review rationale expressing an issue with the way the close interpreted consensus. Speculation about nominator and participant motives, or opinions about guidelines and template style are off-topic here. Saying that the consensus that has been reached in this discussion exceeds reason to me actually clearly shows that this is an attempt at re-litigation and that no fault is found with the close itself. Choucas 🐦‍⬛ 16:04, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
    Your contribution to the discussion was Delete per nom and Sirfurboy; we already have so many such terrible sidebars, let's try to cull the ones we have instead of making ever worse ones and that was the extent of your participation. There is no argument I could present in response to this kind of contribution that would create an internal contradiction in the closing logic because the argument presented is so minimalistic that it's essentially just a vote. And the XfD closed with the simple closing note The result of the discussion was delete without explaining the arguments on either side/the rationale that went into the XfD closing. Yes this is re-litigation, and re-litigation and review by additional eyes are fully warranted considering how obviously the sidebar connects a set of dozens of explicitly related topics to the sidebar in question. It does not strike me as prima facie plausible that this kind of decision could soundly be made to justify deleting the sidebar in its entirety, as opposed to productively addressing issues per well-established guidelines like WP:BEFORE. To be clear this is an attempted relisting. Alexandraaaacs1989 (talk) 22:13, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse DRV is not TfD round 2. No procedural (as opposed to substantive) error is alleged here. * Pppery * it has begun... 06:15, 26 October 2026 (UTC)

List of Aikatsu! characters

List of Aikatsu! characters (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|revisions|restore)

I know I haven't been really active lately due to Wi-Fi limitations, but I'm coming on behalf of an article that was nominated for deletion back in 2023. I personally think the close was terrible because it did a lot of damage for users who especially have the possibility to clean-up and merge. At best, the AfD should have ended as Redirect. Alternatively, someone else could have done a bold redirect before the debate even started. However, I didn't have time to vote, nor was I aware of the it. Taking to this deletion review, should we restore the page's original revision, so some users (including me) finally have time to merge the list into the parent article myself? ⋆。˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚。⋆ 14:54, 22 October 2026 (UTC)

Would this be a case of a request for history merge? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:27, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse. Redirect would have also been acceptable, but Liz's reasoning against it was sound. I have no objection to restoring the history behind the current redirect to allow a selective merge; I bet Liz would have gladly restored it herself had the appellant bothered to discuss this with her prior to filing this rather combative DRV. Owen× ☎ 16:47, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse (uninvolved). I agree that a Redirect close could have been possible, but the closing admin's choice to Delete was also sensible. No objections to restoring the history of the deleted page to allow for a selective merge. Digital folklorist 19:39, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Overturn to redirect. Liz's closure does not explain why the WP:ATD was not chosen despite being proposed. The history is usually only deleted in more extreme cases, like those described in WP:AFD4. FaviFake (talk) 19:48, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
    Except it does? Traumnovelle (talk) 23:33, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
    Where? FaviFake (talk) 12:59, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Overturn to redirect Restore history under redirect per the above. Clear if scant consensus to not keep, no reason articulated why a redirect would have been problematic or undesirable. Jclemens (talk) 21:54, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
    You know what? We've come a long way towards ATDs that make sense in the past 2.75 years. Not going to ding Liz retroactively. Let's just fix the history and formally acknowledge that undeleting the history of an article turned into a redirect solely on notabilty concerns is not controversial and should be done per any reasonable request from an editor in good standing. Jclemens (talk) 22:34, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
    That used to be explicit policy. I don't know offhand if it was stated anywhere else when that page got redirected as "redundant", or whether or not it was deliberately removed from wherever-else-it-might-have-been deliberately. —Cryptic 22:54, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Overturn to redirect. There was consensus to not keep and no clear argument was made against redirect (except possibly by the closing admin; Some may consider the closing statement to be a WP:SUPERVOTE, but I would not go that far. Liz is one of the strongest and most experienced closers on the project and based on ATDs being a bit less prevalent three years ago). I think relisting would have been the best option at the time to allow for further discussion, but that does not make sense now, three years later. Frank Anchor 22:25, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse the target wasn't a list of characters and made no sense as a redirect. Per WP:ATD-R 'A page can be blanked and redirected if there is a suitable page to redirect to, and if the resulting redirect is not inappropriate.' A redirect entitled 'list of characters' that does not redirect to a list of character is inappropriate and is unlikely to survive RfD. Traumnovelle (talk) 23:32, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
    Keeping it as a source of merged information is the simplest way to address WP:CWW's requirements. Jclemens (talk) 04:03, 24 October 2026 (UTC)
    What content was copied from the article? Traumnovelle (talk) 06:03, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
    The nominator would like to merge the content from the redirect as suggested by the closer of the AfD. Katzrockso (talk) 12:53, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse the close of delete. If the appellant wants to create a real list of characters and to submit it for review, that will be all right, but there was no error by the closer. Robert McClenon (talk) 11:52, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse close but no objections to the history being merged under the redirect, which I don't think requires a decision at DRV. But the assumption that history is going to be helpful is open to challenge. If you want the list of characters, there's already a wiki with that. There's also a book.. Is that deleted list going to have anything else? I suppose an admin could review the hidden content and comment. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:25, 24 October 2026 (UTC)
    the history being merged under the redirect
    What? The history of a page that is now a redirect doesn't need to be merged anywhere in order to be restored. FaviFake (talk) 09:27, 24 October 2026 (UTC)
    The history of List of Aikatsu! characters as deleted to be merged under the redirect created 24 January here . Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:56, 24 October 2026 (UTC)
    That's the same page, you can't merge the history of a page into itself. The admin just needs to restore the part of the history which was deleted. FaviFake (talk) 11:43, 24 October 2026 (UTC)
    Well it was a new redirect and the history should not remove the history of the new redirect. But yes, that's what doesn't need a DRV. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:51, 24 October 2026 (UTC)
Overturn to redirect. The consensus outcome of the discussion was redirect. The closers commentary on whether a redirect was warranted would have better served as a vote. An alternative at the time would have been to relist. Katzrockso (talk) 12:54, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
In fairness to Liz, when this was closed the consensus would not have been to redirect. It's a relatively new thing that discussions like this are expected to default to the ATD. At the time this was a good close. I have no objection to a history restoration or merge but let's be realistic very little to no harm has been done by this close. Spartaz Humbug! 13:20, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
It's a relatively new thing that discussions like this are expected to default to the ATD.
ATDs have been preferred by the delpol for years, probably more than a decade. And I don't think anyone is arguing that the closure was harmful, just incorrect. FaviFake (talk) 13:30, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
I don't fault Liz or allege great harm. I agree that the standards for admins actually respecting ATD policy have increased and it would be unfair to fault Liz for following the norms of the time. Katzrockso (talk) 14:59, 25 October 2026 (UTC)

White genocide in South Africa

White genocide in South Africa (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|revisions|restore)

Hi.

There should be a reconsider for this merging. The article should be a standalone, the White genocide in south Africa is different from the main White genocide conspiracy theory. I think most of the other editors forget that actually this article is about South Africa only. It documents the topic in regard to south Africa, it should not be merged. The selective merging is not a good idea because that will show selective context, it will cut important sections. If a reader wants to know the full white genocide context, they should read the main white genocide article, this article doesn't attempt to classify what the white genocide claim is, it just talks about it in relation to south Africa. I would like more opinion on this and a reconsider, for the article to be standalone. Omniking2100 (talk) 15:45, 22 October 2026 (UTC)

  • Endorse - There really is not a way to read that discussion as anything but a consensus to merge. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:31, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
    majority consensus is merge, but the article doesn't treat the claim as a conspiracy and sending it to an article about a conspiracy is SYNTH, plus the article is different from the main article since it just documents the narrative and doesn't dwell what a white genocide is as a concept like the main article. The article is simply about South Africa, a white genocide in south Africa. I came here to get more opinion if that majority consensus is even rational, since some of the other editors just said merge without giving constructive reasons why. Omniking2100 (talk) 16:45, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
    There is no subject beyond the conspiracy theory. That was the consensus of the discussion and, of course, the sources. E.g. . You discussed this extensively in the AfD, but editors were not convinced. There was clear consensus to merge. DRV is not a do-over. The consensus was correctly evaluated at the AfD by the closer. There's nothing more to do here. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 17:08, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
    The review is where you come to contest against a close in afd, it's why I'm here. The source you quoted was never used in this article, if an editor used this source to say it's a consipiracy, I would never object that, I also question the neutrality of the article. For example, it says afriforum has spread the claim, probably my limitations, but I've found afriforum never agreed or said there's a white genocide in south Africa, plus, afriforum has repeatedly distanced its self from the idea, thus, In the article you never hear a big mention of afriforum. So that's another SYNTH. I didn't even know this source existed, I probably would have used it. What you presented me is not what I'm arguing, there's nothing stopping another user from broadening the section in the main white genocide article and using such sources. This article just documents a narrative in South Africa. Omniking2100 (talk) 17:32, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
Well, the close is sort of dishonest, as there's no space to actually merge any of this content, so it's just going to be a redirect basically. PARAKANYAA (talk) 17:11, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
Overturn to redirect, preferably, which is what all of these people were actually voting for. PARAKANYAA (talk) 20:01, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Comment. I participated in the discussion and am thus involved. But my position, at least, is for a very selective merge with just a couple of sentences added to White genocide conspiracy theory as pasrt of a revision of it's section on South Africa for which there is, IMO, enough room. Eluchil404 (talk) 19:06, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
    What sentences are in this article that are beneficial there? The whole section in that article needs to be trimmed, if anything. PARAKANYAA (talk) 19:07, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse most editors clearly preferred the content to be merged. I've seen discussions in which the consensus was skewed by the sudden appearance of accounts that mainly edit South Asian topics for as long as I have edited (which is a bit more than a year). There have been at least two DRV requests related to it, the second one even brought up the issue explicitly. Two AE requests discussed this, one has been open for 3 months as of now. The issue is almost impossible to address because it is very hard to actually find any evidence of sanctionable misconduct, even if the voting pattern is suspicious enough. Kelob2678 (talk) 21:51, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse (involved) - All these arguments were already made on the AfD. Your concerns about the readers are also misplaced because Wikipedia is not supposed to provide every single detail about a topic. Zalaraz (talk) 02:36, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Weak overturn/relist I can see why the closer made his decision given the overwhelming support but I think a relist was the better option given the weakness of the arguments. The nomination statement was weak, the topic is obviously a subtopic of it and not the same. All the comments about it being a conspiracy theory were worthless, we have articles on conspiracy theories. Traumnovelle (talk) 05:01, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse the close of merge as reflecting rough consensus, and the original article was about a conspiracy theory, so the merge into a conspiracy theory article was correct. Robert McClenon (talk) 11:57, 23 October 2026 (UTC)

Recent discussions

17 October 2026

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
15 (software engineer) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|revisions|restore)

The AfD was given a WP:NAC a single day after it was opened, citing WP:SNOW. The problem is that most of the !votes either didn't address the nomination or gave unconvincing arguments, so there was absolutely still time for consensus to change. I don't believe I am being a sore loser in this scenario by thinking 1 day is too short to gain consensus. While I argued this to the closer, they refused to reopen, so I was forced to bring it here. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 19:08, 17 October 2026 (UTC)

  • Endorse snow keep. Clear consensus to WP:SNOW keep the article, with not a single !vote supporting the nomination. All of the nomination's arguments were indeed addressed directly multiple times in the AfD. Compare with a recently endorsed close from last month, whose AfD lasted for an even shorter time before it was snow kept. Silvers Rayleigh (talk) 19:25, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    Surely you must see that comparing Ed Sheeran and Macklemore, two musical superstars, with an anonymous online programmer known largely for making one website is not a fair comparison. I am not trying to diss the programmer by any means, but the difference in coverage is Grand Canyon-sized. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 19:41, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    How is that relevant in any way? The comparison is between the AfD's, not their subjects; both AfD's received 10 Keep !votes and zero !votes otherwise. The DRV from last month was speedily endorsed. Silvers Rayleigh (talk) 19:44, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse I was totally surprised on how it closed after only 30 hours, but consensus is strongly for keeping the article and no non-keep votes from someone other than the nominator. JuniperChill (talk) 19:36, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Relist. No one other than the nom/appellant addressed the key issue of WP:MERGEREASON. All I see there are reiterations of notability claims, which was never under dispute, and citing the GA status of the articles as reason to oppose merging. The entire exchange about whether software qualifies as "creative work" strikes me as irrelevant. The only relevant question was where readers would be best served in seeing the content, and the only one to address that was Zxcvbnm. And while pageviews suggest readers are interested in the subject, I don't see how it supports the assumption that they're interested in seeing it spread across two separate pages. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the 12k pageviews for 15 (software engineer) are readers looking for 15.ai, the latter with six times as many pageviews, further supporting the call for a merger. Arguments seem to be against deletion, which was never on the table. I'm reluctant to exercise my prerogative per WP:REOPEN, seeing as the NAC "snow" close isn't a clear case of a BADNAC. Owen× ☎ 19:53, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Weak Endorse the early close after 10 Keep votes and no Merge or Delete votes. I respectfully disagree with the appellant's statement that there was time for consensus to change. It was clear that the result after a week would be a Keep, and the purpose of a snow close or early close is to end a discussion when we know what the outcome will be. The result might not have been unanimous, but a 20-10 result, for instance, would still be a Keep. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:58, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse per Robert McClenon. There was no chance the discussion would be closed as anything but keeping the article. Madeleine (talk) 20:04, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Overturn (edit: and relist). There is an appearance of crowd-like, WP:TAGTEAM-like, behavior. The overall happenings give me a sense of unease.—Alalch E. 20:14, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    • Question - Is it correct to assume thatUser:Alalch E. means to overturn the snow close and relist? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:37, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
      I'm assuming Alalch E. meant "vacate", which implies a relist or renomination. Owen× ☎ 20:45, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
      Yes, overturn and relist, thanks. —Alalch E. 21:58, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse 6 unopposed !votes and 24 hours were the old minimum thresholds, which were both exceeded in this case. It's clearly a proper NAC in those cases, although my admonition to NACs to not do SNOW closes remains. Jclemens (talk) 22:50, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    If we simply allow any group of 6 votes to override the deletion process, it would be easy to game the system. The substance of those votes has to be closely examined to make sure they are on topic. As said above, they were clearly not, and engaging in a strawman argument that the page should not be deleted, when it was a merge discussion to begin with. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 23:27, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    As said above, they were clearly not, and engaging in a strawman argument that the page should not be deleted, when it was a merge discussion to begin with. What's clear is that you are misrepresenting everyone's arguments. I provided my !vote knowing full well that it was not a deletion discussion and argued for keeping over merging, and it's presumptuous to imply that all the participants of the AfD had no idea what they were discussing as well. It's ironic, because you were the one who wrote There's no proof whey went over and analyzed the article (diff) to describe someone who explicitly wrote that they GA reviewed the article, and also made the false claim that the subject is an AI wrapper (diff), clearly not having read the article properly yourself. Silvers Rayleigh (talk) 23:58, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    Look, if you can't get a single person to agree with you in 30 hours, stop complaining here and go read WP:1AM. Dealing graciously when consensus is "wrong" is part of life on Wikipedia. Jclemens (talk) 01:02, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
    Multiple people above already agree with me that this close was incorrect, so I don't think it can be dismissively waved away as "complaining" any longer without good evidence. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 02:27, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
    Two is indeed multiple, but I don't find their concerns relevant: Just because you raise a question doesn't mean that they must address it as a reason. If they don't, you may be talking past each other, as I think did happen here, with the "They're both GA" arguments against merging. In fact, you sort of contributed yourself when you brought up Just FYI, GAs are not sanity checked for notability.: it's not relevant because GNG was never in question in the first place--your entire argument amounts to NOPAGE, so you're diving into the weeds to rebut an arguably incorrect (but irrelevant) statement. You could have legitimately and impartially notified all prior AfD participants. You didn't, and those favoring merger the previous time didn't show this time. So while the consensus was a lot closer in the earlier full AfD, it has moved solidly away. Incidentally enough, despite the behavior concerns articulated above, a merge !voter was the one opinion struck as a sock in the first AfD. I'm not saying there is no possibility of inappropriate influence, but you do have a sitting arb opining to keep this this time, too. So yeah, I think my "let it go" advice is even more correct after further review. Jclemens (talk) 03:57, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
    In which P&G is/was this minimum threshold documented? Left guide (talk) 23:30, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    I do not remember. We're talking 2008 era knowledge here, and I haven't been able to find it again. I do not expect it to be normative on anyone else, but explaining that I've retained that as a personal threshold for accepting a SNOW close as legitimate. Jclemens (talk) 01:02, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
    Closest I can find is Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Archive 59#Early closures Jclemens (talk) 01:13, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
  • weakEndorse "SNOW Keep", but chastise the BADNAC. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:48, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
    I can easily see discussion ending with a consensus to merge after a full discussion period. This first wave of participants is not necessarily representative. I sense at least a 15% success chance and that is not a snowball’s chance in hell. —Alalch E. 08:32, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
    I don’t see what you see.
    I see a 90% change of a keep close at or before 168hours. If it goes beyond that I see a 99% chance of a dogged heels dug non productive high cost argument, with some supporting the merge but never coming close to turning the keeps enogutoswing the discussion. It will not come back, not without a pause.
    There is already plenty of material to compose a different merge proposal next time, after six months. In the meantime, these articles being elate causes no harm.
    I am uneasy about the call being made by a non admin. SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:28, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
    The AfD discussion did not yet have the chance to be noticed by those who weren't highly involved with the subject, the GA creator and reviewer comprising two of the most vehement arguments not to merge, and several others citing their arguments.
    Not to try to relitigate the AfD, but one of the main arguments against merge was that the 15.ai article was too long, which it is not. A lot of it is taken up by citations that directly pull quote their source (not sure how normal this is; it takes up a *lot* of room on the page) ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 17:13, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
    Coming back, I’ll weaken my !vote. I now feel that it was obviously a BADNAC. The early close did has not helped. It would have been better not done. SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:29, 19 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Comments: I see three possible issues, and so three possible routes to address this issue. The first is to do the research of looking for previous examples of AFDs that were unanimous after 24 hours and were allowed to run to completion, and see whether any of them resulted in a change of consensus. The second is to take another look at the policies and guidelines of early closure (which is the same as snow closure, and is not the same as speedy keep or speedy delete). The third is to ask whether non-administrative closures, even by experienced non-administrators, should be strongly discouraged.
    • First, have there been previous cases of AFDs that appeared to be unanimous after 24 hours, but the tide of consensus turned, and there was a different result after 168 hours? Is someone ready to do the research?
    • Second, is the appellant arguing that the concept of snow closure or snowball closure or early closure is questionable and should be deprecated? Alternatively, is the appellant arguing that AFDs should not be closed early until 48 hours or 72 hours have elapsed?
    • Third, should non-administrators make occasional snow closures? My thinking is that the answer to this question should be No. I would suggest that a non-admin should make a comment that a snow closure is in order, and wait for an administrator. However, such closures were not deprecated when this close was made, and this closure can stand, unless it should be overturned based on historical research, or based on reversing the concept of snow closure. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:00, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
    1. I think it's self-evident just by looking at whether the argument had been addressed that there was potential for consensus to change. It's something an admin would have immediately noticed. I'm not sure statistical analysis is necessary here.
    2. No and no. SNOW closure is justified in some scenarios, like when a nominator is blatantly and unequivocally wrong.
    3. I think non-admins should still be allowed to SNOW close. However, I do propose requiring that they revert said SNOW closure if presented with any sort of evidence that it may have been improper that goes beyond "I don't like the outcome". For something that is supposed to "save time" quote unquote, having to bring it to DRV wastes far more time, whether it gets overturned or not. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 23:19, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Relist This article has a problematic history at AfD, with an editor seeking to renominate it a week after a no consensus close, and being told to wait two months. During that first discussion, there were many editors that suggested that the article should be merged. A speedy close in this AfD prevented those editors (if they wished) from participating. We generally allow for a week for that reason. While I do think that a NAC could speedy or snow keep an article, a quick look at the other discussions would suggest there would be disagreement, even if it hadn't shown up in the current discussion. --Enos733 (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2026 (UTC)
    That's a good point, Enos733. And while I'm not convinced there was a coordinated WP:TAGTEAM at work here, the absence of our AfD regulars troubles me enough to suggest that the early close effectively limited the discussion to just those following the article, to the exclusion of editors who scan all AfDs and are less likely to have a personal preference. Owen× ☎ 15:18, 19 October 2026 (UTC)
    I don't think there needs to be a purposeful tag team for there to be highly engaged people jumping in first in a pile-on. Involved people with the article will naturally jump in first, if not immediately. Closing it deprives uninvolved people of the chance to say their opinion, and potentially change the consensus. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 19:08, 19 October 2026 (UTC)
    I agree. The sample of participants we got in those first few hours was not representative of the general editor community. Owen× ☎ 19:13, 19 October 2026 (UTC)
    The editor who nominated it a week after a no consensus close was blocked as a sockpuppet. And one of the merge !voters in the first AfD was also blocked as a highly prolific sockpuppet. So actually, it's not that they were prevented from participating by the early close, but rather by their own doing. Silvers Rayleigh (talk) 18:10, 19 October 2026 (UTC)
    @Silvers Rayleigh: I'm not sure I understand. Which AfD participants or regulars were prevented from participating in the latest AfD by their own doing? Owen× ☎ 18:57, 19 October 2026 (UTC)
    @OwenX: Enos733 pointed out that the early close of the most recent AfD prevented editors who had previously !voted to merge in the first and second AfD's, and I replied that actually, two editors who had !voted to merge in the previous AfD's, User:Eritr and User:Ibnqirtaiba, have been indef'd for sockpuppetry. I was simply pointing out that an overwhelming Keep !vote was not out of the ordinary, as two editors who had previously !voted merge are unable to do so because of their sockepuppetry (hence, by their own doing). I made no comment about AfD regulars. Silvers Rayleigh (talk) 19:05, 19 October 2026 (UTC)
    Right, but the early close still prevented the editors in good standing who !voted against retention in the first AfD from participating in the last AfD, through no fault of their own, resulting in what is likely a biased, premature outcome. Owen× ☎ 19:18, 19 October 2026 (UTC)
    And we also got new !voters who hadn't participated in the previous AfD's also !voting to Keep. I'm seeing at least five Keep !votes who were completely uninvolved to begin with. I'm not seeing what the problem is here. Silvers Rayleigh (talk) 19:23, 19 October 2026 (UTC)
    The problem is that by closing the discussion before most regular participants get to see it, you're bound to get an outcome biased towards those who watch the article or the relevant wikiproject. And frankly, I doubt you, Silvers Rayleigh, would be this adamantly against hearing from other participants if it weren't for you being among the article's primary authors. Owen× ☎ 19:45, 19 October 2026 (UTC)
    For the record, I only noticed the article when it was nominated for Good Topic. So I had nothing to do with any weird goings on beforehand, this AfD was totally isolated from any of that and purely based on my own judgement. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 19:13, 19 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Relist/Vacate There was not enough time for other editors to weigh in, and some of the Keep votes are pretty faulty or don't address WP:MERGEREASON. Skyshiftertalk 22:42, 19 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Comment - I have changed my Endorse to a Weak Endorse for two reasons. The first is that the previous participants in the first AFD were not pinged. The second is that the snowball close should not have been made by a non-admin. Non-admin closes should be non-contentious. That is, non-admins should not close contentious AFDs. This was and is clearly a contentious AFD. The closer intended to save six days of pile-on voting to Keep, but that is now resulting in seven days of discussion at DRV. I am considering whether to strike my Weak Endorse. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:02, 20 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse clear case of a snow close, with ten keep !votes, most rooted in P&G, against only the nom. Thecloser quickly saw that there was zero chance of any outcome in which the article would not be kept, especially considering the very recent "no consensus" result following a very lengthy discussion two months ago. Frank Anchor 14:41, 20 October 2026 (UTC)
Even a 2nd "no consensus" would have had different implications. SNOW is not just for when articles wouldn't have been deleted or merged, but also when there is not even a chance of ANY form of potential debate. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 01:49, 21 October 2026 (UTC)
And in this case, it was a very clear trend toward keep. Frank Anchor 16:55, 21 October 2026 (UTC)
Endorse. The participants unanimous and having satisfactorily countered the nominator's reasons for merging, the snow keep closure was a very reasonable decision. I partook in the first AfD two months ago and was not notified of this one. HackerKnownAs (talk) 17:27, 21 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Weak Endorse. The discussion met what I consider the minimum requierments for a NAC, SNOW close 24 hours and 10+ comments but just barely. It could have usefully been left to run another day or two. I also judge many of the Keep comments to be weak reasons to oppose a merge. In hindsight this was clearly more controversial than it seemed and not as obvious as it seemed and not the best candidate for a NAC but nothing presented here convinces me that it was wrong or that there is any real prospect a longer discussion reaching a different conclusion. Eluchil404 (talk) 20:21, 21 October 2026 (UTC)
Removing the 'weak' qualifier to my Endorse. Per User:Digital folklorist this close was correct at the time it was made and should not be overturned. Eluchil404 (talk) 23:46, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Vacate non-admin closure and reopen for full duration. Stifle (talk) 08:02, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Strong vacate. The "endorse" !votes here are baffling. First of all, basically none of the !votes addressed the core part of the nomination. And secondly, this was closed early, by a non-admin, and the closure did not even acknowledge the fact that none of the !votes were relevant to the nomination. Or rather, the closer literally didn't address anything because they didn't even leave a closing comment.
    We have due process, people. Take a similar merge discussion initiated by the same nominator: it was initially closed as keep by Star Mississippi, but after being relisted there was consensus to merge. This could very well have happened here too, if the discussion had been given time to breathe.
    Of course all the "keep" comments will seem strong if we don't give people enough time to address them. But even if the !votes hadn't been nonsensical, this would have still been a terribly WP:BADNAC. FaviFake (talk) 19:59, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
    They felt the nomination didn't articulate a policy-based reason for redirection. It's pretty simple, actually. Nothing in the nom requires deletion or redirection, it's all a matter of opinion. Not unreasonable opinion, but not sufficiently policy based that one must argue !X for keep instead of Y (reason for keeping) > X (reason for deletion) in order for it to be reasonable input. Several people are making this point, not just you, hence me addressing it. Jclemens (talk) 20:33, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
    Note: the merge discussion that was given as an example is now listed at DRV. Digital folklorist 01:10, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse (uninvolved). Having read all the past AfDs and this DRV in their entirety, oh boy was that a lot of info to take in. In all honesty, I'm not seeing why some editors believe that the central points in the AfD were left unaddressed. Jishara, Madeline, and Silvers addressed WP:SHORTTEXT with a word count analysis and a shorter comparable article. Silvers and CaptainEek addressed WP:OVERLAP with biographical and ongoing coverage independent of 15.ai, plus the length of the proposed target, a reason to avoid merging per WP:MERGE. Madeline answered the nomintor's WP:NCREATIVE point with the wording of criterion 3, after which the nominator ostensibly conceded.
Theres' a unanimous consensus for the side of Keep after 30 hours with no objections other than from the nominator, with each of the nomination's grounds answered. Maybe not all of the !votes specially pointed out each of the nomination's points one by one, sure; but the fact remains that as a whole, all the points were addressed, so I rule out the appellant's argument that the participants were debating a strawman. Per WP:SNOW, was a different outcome realistic? A merge result would need a consensus to form over ten Keeps, two months after a full-length AfD on this article closed as no consensus, the only realistic but low-chance alternative was another "no consensus", which changes nary a thing. I'm unconvinced that this was a WP:BADNAC, 10-0 is neither a close call or facially controversial, further supported by the fact that OwenX considered WP:REOPEN and declined. Digital folklorist 21:01, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
unconvinced that this was a WP:BADNAC, 10-0 is neither a close call or facially controversial
I'm going to keep myself from replying to every other incorrect part of your comment, mainly for lack of time, but I just had to ask: are you seriously suggesting that this closure was not a controversial decision, with two admins and several other editors calling for it to be vacated? If that's not a controversial decision that is best left to admins, then I don't know what is. FaviFake (talk) 21:49, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
It's written in WP:BADNAC that the test is whether the outcome was likely to be controversial; not discovered to be controversial a posteriori. A WP:SNOW keep closure for an AfD that acrrued 10 Keeps and 0 objections is not expected to be controversial. If we define a controversial close to be one where anyone objects afterwards, then every NAC brought to DRV is a BADNAC by definition. Digital folklorist 22:00, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
You are arguing that the closer could not have known it may be controversial in advance of this discussion. That is not true, since it had an AfD 2 months ago that resulted in a close debate with no consensus. If one checked this, the evidence of "early pile-on", as WP:EARLY warns about, would have been clear. I also disagree WP:SHORTTEXT was adequately countered, since it glossed over the fact that a large chunk of the article was essentially a duplicate of the other pages on the subject, but this isn't the place to relitigate the discussion. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:02, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
It's written in WP:BADNAC
Maybe I should make another essay that contradicts policy, create a cool shortcut to it, and quote stuff from it. Is WP:TERRIBLENAC too long? FaviFake (talk) 11:22, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
There's no need to be so rude and condescending. You can disagree without being disagreeable. Digital folklorist 11:41, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
Sure. Then I disagree that what's written in an essay should be given more weight than the deletion guideline. FaviFake (talk) 12:18, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
@Digital folklorist: No one is accusing the NAC of bad faith. But even on a purely a priori basis, the fact that this was the article's third nomination should have given the closer pause for thought, and perhaps allow the discussion to go on for more than 30 hours. And since we're mentioning WP:BADNAC, I'd like to point out that the NAC participated in a grand total of 13 AfDs (not counting April 1st joke nominations), and in half of those the close ended up contrary to their !vote. I believe BADNAC#2, The non-admin has little or no experience editing Wikipedia generally or has little or no previous participation in discussions, applies here. not-cheesewhisk3rs should not be closing any XfDs until they've gained more experience and better understanding of our P&G. Owen× ☎ 12:48, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
That says they are "better left to admins", not that controversial closes shouldn't be performed whatsoever by non-admins. Otherwise S. Marshall's typically meticulous and well-reasoned closes would constantly be overturned. Katzrockso (talk) 12:39, 24 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Relist this was a controversial BADNAC close so a relist should be easy. Also, if we relist, looking at both the article, the arguments made in the AfD critically, and the fact people who edited the article were pinged/canvassed, it could still close as a no consensus or even a merge. SportingFlyer T·C 19:07, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endosse Per JClemens, Eluchil404 and Digital folklorist. IMO the minimum for NAC was met and I disagree there was a possibility of a different result other than keeping. The underlying Afd was properly closed as a Snow keep and I do not believe the closer erred by doing so. Bronymike2010 (talk) 03:10, 24 October 2026 (UTC)
Endorse. I find the overturn/relist comments here baffling in that they claim the discussion did not address the arguments of the nomination. Perhaps they read a different AfD than I did. The idea that a different close would have evolved from this discussion had it continued is not plausible. Poorly argued nominations should be discouraged with swift SNOW results. Katzrockso (talk) 02:46, 25 October 2026 (UTC)
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Pat Karney (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|revisions|restore)

Substantial obituaries on the BBC and the Manchester Evening News point to his significance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rathfelder (talk • contribs) 15:08, 17 October 2026 (UTC)

  • Endorse. Clear consensus to not keep the article, and the sensible WP:ATD was selected over deletion. Appellant appears to be attempting to reiterate the AFD, a violation of WP:DRVNOT #4. Frank Anchor 17:28, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
  • I can't help but notice that none of the Delete !votes presented a valid argument against restoring the redirect, nor for why the history behind it should be purged. Such arguments would have been rightly rejected at RfD, and therefore should receive minimal weight here when debating retention versus restoring the redirect. That said, this appeal falls under DRVNOT#3 and #4, leading me to endorse the close. Owen× ☎ 17:32, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
  • I would say that I don't see a DRV nomination in the fist paragraph/comment in this section. I'll interpret it as a statement that the wrong decision was made at the AfD because the subject was a notable individual, but that is still not a claim that the closer of a deletion discussion interpreted the consensus incorrectly. Namely both can be true at the same time: (1) An editor or multiple editors believe the wrong decision was made; (2) the consensus was interpreted correctly. It is too much of a stretch for me to read the text Substantial obituaries on the BBC and the Manchester Evening News point to his significance as a statement that the consensus was interpreted incorrectly. Consequently, I do not see a nomination here, and as there is no nomination there is no prospect of success, so I recommend a speedy endorse.—Alalch E. 18:12, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Both sources alluded to above were in the article and were raised at the AFD. If they weren't convincing then, why on earth do you think they're sufficient to reopen the closed discussion? —Cryptic 18:57, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse - The appellant is disagreeing with the AFD participants, not with the closer. That isn't what DRV is for. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:28, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Relist only two delete !votes are policy based, Scope Creep and 4meter4. All the others, including the nom, that say "Fails NPOL" do not address SIGCOV or GNG. An article is notable if it meets GNG or any SNG. The remainder of the delete !votes are not compelling enough for the ATD to be needed, but I agree that an outright deletion would have been worse. Relisting directions, if endorsed, should focus on whether the GNG is met or not, not NPOL. Jclemens (talk) 22:55, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
Endorse. There was a consensus against retention of the article, but no policy based arguments (or any arguments whatsoever) against the redirect. The closer correctly selected the redirect outcome as the consensus Katzrockso (talk) 01:08, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
  • I suppose I ought to have left a prose summary, but in all honesty I did not expect this to be contentious. Contra Jclemens above, I would read several other comments as saying that the existing sourcing was insufficient for GNG. Only two !votes are based solely on the NPOL failure, and even setting those aside (as I did) there is consensus against a standalone. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:39, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse. While substantial obituaries on the BBC and the Manchester Evening News point to his significance, that is only a pointer, and the decision gets made at AfD. It was a good discussion, and the outcome is clear. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:44, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
    These comments are very procedural, and I am afraid I am not familiar with the procedure. We have many thousands of articles about local councillors. Not many of them get obituaries on the BBC or on the front page of the regional paper, nor a mention in Prime Minister question time. Most of the AFD was conducted before Karney died, and so did nt take account of those. I would like the discussion to be reopened in the light of those. Rathfelder (talk) 14:38, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
    @Rathfelder: DRV generally doesn't look at the article or its sourcing. As an appeal instance, DRV's focus is determining whether the AfD close reflects the opinions expressed there, vis-a-vis our policies and guidelines. The closer, as a neutral adjudicator, cannot impose their own views on the notability of the subject. You already expressed your views about the notability of the subject at the AfD, and they were almost unanimously rejected. We're not here to replay that AfD. For all I know, the subject may very well be notable, but that doesn't detract from the validity of the close of the AfD. You've been here longer than most editors, and have more edits to your name than almost anyone else. You know how consensus works. Owen× ☎ 17:08, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
    So I could restart the article? Rathfelder (talk) 19:09, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
    Since the old content is available behind the redirect, I'd recommend using that to start a new, better sourced draft at Draft:Pat Karney. As an experienced editor, you don't have to go through WP:AFC, but I'd still recommend doing so, due to the contentious notability. If you choose this route, please withdraw the DRV. Owen× ☎ 19:23, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
    Thank you. Happy to do that, but how do I withdraw the DRV?
    I'm afraid I havent much experience in this area! Rathfelder (talk) 09:49, 19 October 2026 (UTC)
    Thank you, Rathfelder. I can handle the closing. Owen× ☎ 12:14, 19 October 2026 (UTC)
    “Most of the AFD was conducted before Karney died”. That’s an important point.
    I suggest waiting and using AfC. Emphasize WP:THREE sources that appear after the close of the AfD. SmokeyJoe (talk) 20:44, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

16 October 2026

  • Heather Nigro – Deletion Endorsed Given unresolved concerns about paid editing or a COI, I decline to draftify this. Spartaz Humbug! 05:49, 24 October 2026 (UTC)
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Heather Nigro (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|revisions|restore)

I request that this AfD be relisted for further review. The original discussion did not fully evaluate dedicated coverage in LADYGUNN, CanvasRebel and VoyageMIA spanning 2020–2026. Additional sources document a Graphis Gold Award and published work in Harper's Bazaar, Billboard and SPIN. While some references were photography credits, others provided coverage of Nigro's career. A fuller source-based review under WP:GNG and WP:NBIO is warranted. ~2026-55485-88 (talk) 03:15, 16 October 2026 (UTC)

  • If you want to convince people that new sources would make a difference, you've really got to link to them. WP:THREE is good advice on how to do this effectively. —Cryptic 03:29, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
    • (If they're the same ones from the deleted article, you'll have a real uphill battle. The LADYGUNN source there has almost no biographical information and the ones from CanvasRebel and VoyageMIA are interviews without secondary analysis. —Cryptic 03:34, 16 October 2026 (UTC))
  • Temp undelete for review, please. Jclemens (talk) 04:29, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
    • Done. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:41, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
      • Endorse Nothing that passes GNG, ANYBIO, or CREATIVE is in evidence. If an award doesn't have its own Wikipedia page, it's not going to count for ANYBIO criterion 1. The allegations of UPE aren't helpful to retention here, but substantiating those allegations isn't necessary for this outcome to be proper. Relisting would have been within closer discretion, but wasn't necessary. Jclemens (talk) 05:07, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
Endorse, a deletion discussion with only two participants is typically closed as soft delete, but this article was a product of undisclosed paid editing and the DRV nominator has only offered non-independent publicity pieces as "dedicated coverage". Helpful Raccoon (talk) 22:39, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Questions - Is the appellant being paid by the subject's agency (or anyone related)? Why doesn't the appellant register an account or log on from an account? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:45, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse. No such significant new information has come to light since the deletion that would justify undeleting the page or relisting. The three sources appear to be this, this, and this, and their existence does not amount to significant new information.—Alalch E. 00:34, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    Endorse as a hard delete of course, in case there's any doubt. —Alalch E. 00:35, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Additional sources for consideration under WP:THREE, WP:GNG and WP:CREATIVE
In response to the request for additional sources, the following three publications warrant examination beyond the LADYGUNN, CanvasRebel and VoyageMIA references previously discussed.
1. Galconomist — The Pinball Queen of Brooklyn
https://galconomist.substack.com/p/the-death-of-fun-the-making-of-the
This article documents the editorial development of a profile, including the writer's decision to pursue the story and conduct an interview and photography session. The complete published feature warrants examination for significant independent biographical coverage.
2. USA TODAY — Clinton Nation
https://www.usatoday.com/pages/interactives/clinton-nation/#/person/heather-nigro/
This entry in USA TODAY's interactive project warrants examination for its editorial content, depth and independence. The underlying material needs to be assessed to determine whether it qualifies as significant coverage.
3. Harper's Bazaar Vietnam — Flora Luminosa
https://bazaarvietnam.vn/phu-nu-va-hoa-tuong-trung-cho-cai-dep-truong-ton-va-hien-dai/
This editorial discusses the imagery, symbolism and artistic themes of the Flora Luminosa photographic series. It warrants assessment under WP:CREATIVE because it discusses creative work beyond a simple photography credit.
Previously cited recognition — Graphis Photography Awards
The Graphis recognition was already included in the original biography and is not being presented as new evidence. It remains relevant background when evaluating the subject's creative recognition.
I recognize the concerns raised about interview-based sources, promotional coverage and professional credits. These additional sources are offered for individual assessment of independence, reliability and depth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 0423J (talk • contribs) 07:41, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
“Warrants examination” is a poor match to “meets the WP:GNG”. These three sources do not meet the GNG. SmokeyJoe (talk) 20:39, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse. While I am typically one of the first to scream WP:NOQUORUM in cases like this, the concerns of paid editing supersede this. The references in the article and brought up here do not allow the subject to pass GNG or ANYBIO. I am also okay with a relist to allow for the possibility of reaching a quorum and this more clearly becoming a hard delete. Frank Anchor 15:10, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse but complain that all involved should have mentioned draftification. TOOSOON and PAID both mean DRAFTIFY. Draftify now. Note that draftification via consensus at AfD carries no suggestion that it is close to being acceptable in mainspace. TOOSOON means something serious and new will be needed. PAID means that AfC must be used. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:38, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Request for draftification as an alternative resolution
Given the concerns raised during this review, restoring the original article to Draft space represents a reasonable and constructive alternative to maintaining its deletion. This approach would preserve the existing content and revision history while allowing further development and evaluation before any reconsideration for mainspace publication.
Additional sources, including Galconomist, USA TODAY, and Harper's Bazaar Vietnam, have been identified for evaluation under WP:GNG and WP:CREATIVE. Draftification would provide an opportunity to assess their independence, depth of coverage, and relevance alongside previously documented creative recognition.
Concerns regarding sourcing, neutrality, and promotional language can be addressed through the draft review process. References to undisclosed paid editing should also be distinguished from established findings unless supported by specific evidence.
Draftification does not presume that the article currently satisfies Wikipedia's notability requirements or guarantee its eventual publication. Rather, it provides an appropriate pathway for further development and independent review through WP:AFC.
I request that the reviewing administrator support draftification and restore the original article, including its revision history, to Draft space. This would preserve the existing work while providing an opportunity to address the identified concerns through further development and independent review.
0423J (talk) 05:05, 19 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse as a valid call by the closer, but change to Draftify. Either Soft Delete or Draftify would have also been valid closes. The appellant has not answered the question of whether they are being paid, so we can assume that they are being paid. Now that the article is temporarily undeleted, any editor can copy it to draft space, but that will lose attribution, so it is better to draftify it and preserve its history. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:38, 21 October 2026 (UTC)
Thank you for your assessment and support of draftification.
To clarify, I am not receiving payment or compensation for my participation in this discussion. I have also logged into my Wikipedia account to address concerns raised regarding anonymous participation and transparency. The assumption of paid editing is incorrect.
I agree that restoring the article to Draft space, with its revision history preserved, would be a constructive resolution. This would allow the identified sourcing, neutrality, and notability concerns to be addressed through further development and independent review under WP:AFC.
0423J (talk) 02:07, 21 October 2026 (UTC)
Your statement “I am not receiving payment or compensation for my participation in this discussion” is so specific I consider it to imply that you have a financial connection to the subject. The article has a history of undeclared paid editing and a suspicion of sockpuppetry. What accounts have you previously used on Wikipedia? What is your connection to the subject. Please put the answers on your Userpage, User:0423J. Please never again edit projectspace while logged out.
If you have a connection to the subject, you are encouraged to contribute in draftspace, and on its talk page if in mainspace. Getting the page back into mainspace may be difficult, as there is currently a lot of commercial promotion of the subject. The article was WP:Reference bombed, which in practice makes it very hard to argue to support keeping. I recommend starting by removing all of the weak sources, and focus on the WP:THREE best sources. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:35, 21 October 2026 (UTC)
To clarify, this is my first registered Wikipedia account, although I have previously edited while logged out. I have addressed my editing background and connection to the subject on User:0423J.
I understand the concerns regarding sourcing and agree that removing weaker references and focusing on the strongest independent sources would be a constructive approach.
My request remains focused on restoring the original article to Draft space, where these concerns can be addressed before any consideration of publication.
0423J (talk) 06:32, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse (uninvolved) per WP:DRVNOT #4; DRV is not AfD round 2. The above concerns of undisclosed paid editing and COI are also troubling and strongly suggests the subject isn't truly notable. Digital folklorist 19:55, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Overturn to soft delete. One !vote is usually not enough to warrant a "hard" delete, and it definitely wasn't in this case. FaviFake (talk) 20:01, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse Sourcing was clearly not enough for establishing notability. Though drafting can be an option for OP if they want to introduce some new sources. Zalaraz (talk) 05:23, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse I don't love AfDs with two !votes, giving this DRV a feel of an AfD part two: but there was nothing wrong with the discussion, and if we restored it and sent it back to AfD, based on the sources which have been made available, it would be deleted. That last comment is a little outside of DRV's purview, but it is true. SportingFlyer T·C 19:00, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

15 October 2026

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Voting Rights Lab (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|revisions|restore)

The closer appears to have treated the discussion as a vote, rather than a !vote. When I took it to their talk page to discuss the guideline-based reason for deletion (that editors have only pointed to a single, routine article of SIGCOV), the closer's response was to chastise me for bludgeoning. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:46, 15 October 2026 (UTC)

Endorse: an AfD with no support for the nomination can't be closed as delete. At best, there is a case to close as no consensus. Katzrockso (talk) 00:10, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
I'm fine with overturning to no consensus. I'm not asking to overturn to delete. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:39, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
Bringing something to DRV to overturn it to NC is bureaucracy for the sense of bureaucracy. The only thing that is affected is the generally accepted time to renomination the article and that is often waived by closers when requested. Katzrockso (talk) 00:58, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
I also endorse the closure of the discussion as keep. The nominator, as the closer pointed out, had a low quality nomination that failed to elaborate on what the issues were with the article. On the closer's talk page, the nominator incorrectly suggests that the closer should have downweighted or dismissed all keep !votes because they didn't demonstrate how the article passed NCORP, but fails to point to the relevant section of the guideline (WP:NGO). Even a no consensus closure would be inappropriate in this case. Katzrockso (talk) 01:04, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
My rationale was that there was only a single source purported to establish notability. NGO is still a strict standard. I did my BEFORE search (both times I nominated the article), read the sources cited in the article, asked other editors if there were other soruces, and the only SIGCOV anyone has been able to point to is that one source. That is not enough for even a GNG pass. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:30, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse. Despite the fact that the nominator attempted to impose their will on the discussion with TEN responses, their deletion rationale was rejected by every other participant and the discussion was already relisted multiple times. Any close other than keep would have been inappropriate. Frank Anchor 02:53, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
I will note that I would not object to an "earlier than normal" re-nomination if anyone wishes to go that route. Frank Anchor 02:55, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
How is asking editors to provide sources (which would only strengthen their arguments and potentially persuade me to change my !vote to keep), discussing several of those sources cordially with another editor, and responding to new sources when they're provided an attempt[] to impose [my] will on the discussion? voorts (talk/contributions) 06:04, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse If it got deleted before and no one was showing up this time, notifying each of the previous AfD participants would have been reasonable, as the previous AfD was last year. I don't see that that was done. But we don't even "no consensus" things when a number of people showed up and none of them supported the nominator. Jclemens (talk) 04:33, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
  • I might have closed as no consensus because the arguments on each side were roughly balanced in quality, but I cannot say keep was so obviously wrong that it should be overturned. Endorse. Stifle (talk) 08:13, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Are you seriously asking us to discard every !vote other than your nomination, and overturn to No-consensus, so that--what, exactly? Even if we accept your argument on merits, the only difference would be a possible early renomination. Please, Voorts, just withdraw this DRV, and renominate in two months or whenever you see fit. Owen× ☎ 08:38, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
    Consider it withdrawn. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:21, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
  • Serenade (company) – There is no consensus to restore this article. There is no prohibition on starting a new draft but given the previous sockpuppetry editors would be advised to wait for an established editor to accept any draft. Spartaz Humbug! 20:56, 23 October 2026 (UTC)
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Serenade (company) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (revisions|restore)

Hi. You recently deleted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenade_(company) under criterion G11. I was in the process of reviewing the deletion notice and preparing a response, but unfortunately the page was removed before I had an opportunity to contest it.

Having reviewed the situation, I recognise that the previous version of the Serenade article may not have met Wiki's expectations regarding neutral language and tone.

However, I believe there may be a legitimate case for the company's inclusion based on its coverage within the music industry, particularly where that coverage comes from independent, reliable secondary sources rather than company announcements or promotional material.

Would you be willing to restore the deleted article to allow for a substantial rewrite?

I would be happy to remove any promotional language, reassess the existing references, and focus exclusively on independently verifiable information that meets Wiki's requirements.

Once revised, I could submit the article through the Articles for Creation process rather than publishing it directly, allowing an independent reviewer to assess whether it meets Wikipedia's standards if you wish.

I would for sure respect the outcome of an independent review.

I would be grateful if you could consider this request, or advise whether there is a more appropriate route to pursue.

I am an independent music industry guy in the UK and this is one of my first articles so still learning the ropes but help in reinstating this would be appreciated. BillyMusicLover333 (talk) 14:16, 15 October 2026 (UTC)

  • Quite aside from the promotionalism, the only thing keeping this from being a G5 too is that we're not certain whether it was one sockfarm that worked on this article or two. So I'm not inclined to entertain a review request from a new account on this subject. —Cryptic 00:09, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
  • I've temp-undeleted the version BillyMusicLover333 created (not the older sockpuppet-related versions Cryptic mentions). I would overturn simply because another admin had declined a G11, which should have made clear to the deleting admin that it wasn't uncontroversial. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:02, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
    • The new version is plainly not independent from the old ones. The Funding section is by far the most obvious, but most of the first revision survives in some form in the undeleted ones. —Cryptic 03:23, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
    But did you notice that another experienced user had nominated this for G11 before I deleted it? User:BillyMusicLover333 chalked up just enough edits to enable him to create it in mainspace, and see the previous edit summary. Deb (talk) Deb (talk) 08:07, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
    Hi @Deb @Cryptic. First off, thank you so much for taking the time to review and reply.
    As cryptic points out this was previously overturned recently which is why I'm confused it was put forward for deletion again. I fully understand the concern you might have about a promotional tone on the funding section and to reiterate, this was independently looked into and was started from scratch, and for my article to survive I'm happy to heavily edit or remove the funding section. It's also true that I'm a relatively new editor but my edits are genuine contributions and I continue to edit on the platform. I'm happy for the article to go through a draft space first if necessary or if you could let me know anything specific I can fix to get this restored that would be great. BillyMusicLover333 (talk) 10:55, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
    The question is, as a brand-new editor, why didn't you use draft in the first place? And what do you mean when you say it was "independently looked into"? Deb (talk) 12:29, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Comment: This topic area (Vinyl Group) has seen some confirmed sockpuppetry, including from (but not limited to) Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Soccermad89/Archive. Janhrach (talk) 22:06, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
    And another thing: @BillyMusicLover333: Why did the initial version of the article contain the {{Draft categories}} template? Where did you copy the article from? Or did you use AI to write it? Janhrach (talk) 22:10, 16 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per Cryptic. Separately, I disagree with the question why didn't you use draft in the first place asked above. Everything that needs to be done here can be done without this a priori wrong question.—Alalch E. 00:25, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    The creator said "I'm happy for the article to go through a draft space first", so they knew that was an option. Deb (talk) 06:22, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    Hey again everyone. I wanted to jump in again to lcear a few things up. For the draft categories - once again I'm new and still learning. I relied on YouTube tutorials to help with my first article and get the lay of the land, and not expecting it to go straight to mainspace when posting. I've obviously got a bit confused about processes along the way.
    To be honest, I also didn't expect this much hostility and accusations for someone posting a comprehensively sourced first article. BillyMusicLover333 (talk) 07:38, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    Apologies for the hostility. To explain, the set of topics for which Wikipedia doesn’t have an article, but should have an article, is complicated and contested, and much more so for commercial topics, where Wikipedia is continually misused for promotional purposes. As a newcomer, launching straight into a new article on a commercial topic is very difficult. I wish that Newcomers were advised to start by improving existing articles before writing new articles. I see you have been editing articles by adding wikilinks, good! Wikilinking between articles is important. Next, try adding new content to existing articles. For the Serenade company, are there any other pages that could be improved by having them mention Serenade? If yes, do this. If no, Serenade is probably not Wikipedia-notable. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:30, 22 October 2026 (UTC)
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

12 October 2026

  • Randy Villegas – Permission to recreate the article is denied. The AfD closure in this case is not contested, but endorsed nonetheless. Sandstein 14:22, 20 October 2026 (UTC)
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Randy Villegas (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|revisions|restore)

Brief background: Villegas is the Democratic US House candidate in CA-22. Villegas' article was AfD'd twice:

  • 1st nom, Jun 20: Consensus was "redirect", with 5 del, 0 keep WP:!VOTEs.
  • 2nd nom, Aug 13: Consensus was "redirect", with 8 del, 3 keep !votes.

I don't contest either AfD. Dr vulpes closed the 2nd correctly. After I WP:BOLDly recreated the article, they reverted and suggested I seek consensus here first.

The deleted version and proposed version are very different (not WP:G4). Deleted version had 12 sources. Proposed version has 53, which include well over 8 independent reliable sources with substantial coverage of Villegas and their broader significance to US politics: AP, full article; Bloomberg Government, ~10 paragraphs; CalMatters, full article; CalMatters, full article; CalMatters, full article; CBS News, full article; CBS News, full article; El País, full article; KVPR, full article; LATimes, full article; LATimes, ~8 paragraphs; LATimes, ~7 paragraphs; NYTimes, full article; Politico, full article; San Francisco Chronicle, full article; American Prospect, full article; American Prospect, ~17 paragraphs; The Sacramento Bee, full article; WaPo, full article; WaPo, full article.

Villegas clearly meets WP:GNG. But AfD practice usually requires more from political candidates (see WP:NCAND and NCAND2), who must have extensive coverage (shown above) and must not fail WP:BLP1E. Villegas passes #3, which rejects articles where the individual's role was either not substantial or not well documented. Villegas' role is well documented and substantial: Villegas won an upset primary victory as a populist progressive against a well-financed, well-credentialed centrist. DCCC financing in the primary caused a national stink between Dem House members. Villegas faces a heated general in one of few California swing districts, as a progressive Democrat against a moderate Republican, during a Democratic wave year. Many outlets have given Villegas WP:SIGCOV precisely because Villegas' politics is rare in this context.

Therefore, I request permission to recreate the article. CopyleftEverything (talk) 20:11, 12 October 2026 (UTC)

I asked/nudged @CopyleftEverything to bring this here since there wasn't really activity on the article talk page. I'm fine with restoring the article but didn't feel comfortable after the two AfDs without some more input. Dr vulpes (Talk) 20:17, 12 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse The close was correct and at least five editors in the 2nd AfD asked for page protection. I think we are being asked to see if real-world events have fundamentally altered the subject's encyclopedic status. But that hasn't happened. Yes, there has been more (expected) campaign coverage, but the nature of the campaign (or the subject) has not changed, as many of the editors at AfD argued. I believe that bypassing a recent AfD consensus based on a rewritten draft would undermine the integrity of the deletion process. If the subject wins in November, their status changes automatically and the page will be recreated then. Until then, our community's recent decision should be respected and the redirect maintained. --Enos733 (talk) 20:47, 12 October 2026 (UTC)
  • If there was a problem here, it's that there was a - justified! - consensus to salt this as a redirect and it was only restricted to extended-confirmed. The unredirection after the first afd and the three after the second were all done by users in this group, but it shouldn't have taken such hindsight to see that anything less than full protection would be insufficient. —Cryptic 21:32, 12 October 2026 (UTC)
Endorse, i.e. do not allow recreation at this time. The argument boils down to a claim that Villegas coverage would be notable enough to warrant an article under GNG, transcending NPOL. I've taken a quick look at the sources in the proposed new article that postdate the 2nd AfD. While there are a number of them, I don't see any that would pass muster in terms of being reliable, independent, and significant. They seem either passing mentions (and/or about the race, with the individual coverage just in passing), or not independent, i.e. repeating what Villegas has said. I didn't check the sources predating the 2nd AFD, assuming they would have been considered that way already. To be clear: I *could* see a situation where a politician, due to their individual characteristics, or due to the surprise factor of their trajectory, could have the level of coverage as an individual that would warrant an article under GNG even if not under NPOL. I just don't think we've met that bar here. Martinp (talk) 22:29, 12 October 2026 (UTC)
Hi @Martinp: Thanks for your reply! On "sources predating the 2nd AFD", only 4 sources were considered, of which 2 are in my list of 20 above. That list has 6 sources since the second AfD: Bloomberg Law, with >10 paragraphs on Villegas' background and progressive politics; Politico, full article on Villegas' progressive populist approach; Prospect, full article on Villegas' progressive populist approach; WaPo, full article on Villegas' progressive populist approach; LATimes articles, compare how Villegas & Valadao have campaigned on affordability & immigration. (Plus 12 articles not considered at AFD.)
Since I drafted the article, at least three more have appeared: GV Wire (local news), contrasts candidates as moderate Republican against progressive populist; NPR KQED, discusses Villegas's & Valadao's strategy to win Latino voters; CalMatters, on Bernie Sanders' rally for Villegas and how conservatives paint him as socialist. If the article is recreated, I'd also include Community Alliance, which further details Villegas' life background. CopyleftEverything (talk) 06:13, 13 October 2026 (UTC)
Oh, and I must've missed The Guardian and El Espanol (during the primary), for a total of three international papers covering the DCCC-progressive battle for CA-22. CopyleftEverything (talk) 06:34, 13 October 2026 (UTC)
I took a quick look at the Bloomberg Law article, and the Politico one (got stopped by firewall on WaPo). Where you see 10 useful paragraphs in Bloomberg Law, I see about 2, providing secondary-source confirmation of elements of his bio and progressive politics, but nothing out of the ordinary for a political candidate. This is not about number of sources that say a bit about a candidate. What would change my -- and I suspect others' -- mind is 1-2 in-depth sources either talking about, based on independent editorial assessment not just repeating what the subject says, what is special about Villegas background or activity? Or why is he an important bellweather on shifting political trends? i.e. more than routine, if verbose, coverage of a political candidate, which NPOL deals with. Martinp (talk) 11:38, 13 October 2026 (UTC)
Went back and looked at the NYT article mentioned above (since I am a subscriber). More of the same - routine coverage of a political candidate. Somewhat more prominent than others (not every congressional candidate gets talked about in the NYT!) but not transcending NPOL, in my opinion. Martinp (talk) 11:41, 13 October 2026 (UTC)
Hi @Martinp: You're right, that NYTimes article is routine, my bad. I meant to link this NYTimes article, with ~10 paragraphs contrasting Villegas' progressive politics (and Sanders/AOC rallies) with the purple district: Randy Villegas’s campaign for Congress in California would feel right at home in a liberal district. [....] Instead, he’s mounting an ambitious campaign in California’s conservative Central Valley[.]
If I had to pick WP:THREE in-depth sources for what is special [....] why is he an important bellweather, I'd pick:
  1. The Guardian, "The ferocious battle in California's heartland laying bare Democrats' struggles", an article about the heated primary fight, through the two lenses of a progressive-centrist battle and of Bains & Villegas' biographies: In many ways, the battle over California’s 22nd congressional district reflects a broader nationwide struggle between the Democratic party’s moderate and progressive wings.
  2. WaPo (archive · is/ibRTw), "Democrats try a novel path to defeat a battleground Republican: Moving to the left", an article about how Villegas' background and progressive politics interact with a young, low-income, purple district: Villegas’s win sets up an interesting political test of the viability of progressive politics in a district that President Donald Trump won in 2024.
  3. American Prospect, "The New Majority Makers", a feature article about the 2026 wave of progressive populists in purple districts, which leads with Villegas, uses him as its central example, and examines his background & policies in detail: A group of unapologetic economic populists are defying the conventional wisdom that only moderates can succeed in swing seats.
CopyleftEverything (talk) 23:39, 13 October 2026 (UTC)
Thanks Copyleft. Stepping aside from this conversation not out of disinterest or being passive-aggressive, but real life has gotten in the way of wikipedia for a few days. Happy for a closer to ignore my vote if others would find the above WP:THREE compelling (btw 3 sources is exactly the right avenue to take here I think). I think we're in an edge case of "how much outside interest does a candidate need to garner to transcend criteria for typical candidates who are primarily of local interest". I don't have a good answer to that, but others might. Martinp (talk) 19:23, 14 October 2026 (UTC)
Hi @Martinp: Totally fair. Best wishes for you and yours. :) CopyleftEverything (talk) 19:41, 14 October 2026 (UTC)
  • No action, specifically do not recreate the article. The “new” version was substantially different from the version redirected at the RFD and should not have been re-redirected without discussion. However, the new references brought up in this DRV are a mix of primary and routine, which don’t do much to get Mr. Villegas to pass GNG for standalone notability. Frank Anchor 23:45, 13 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse the action of restoring the redirection, that is, do not recreate the article. Whether the proposed version of the article is "very different" from the deleted article depends on what you mean by "very" in "very different". Having looked at the two versions, it is my opinion that they are not substantially different enough to warrant re-creation. Much of the difference in article size is the reference-bombing of the article. The community decided that an article on Mr. Villegas does not pass general notabilitynotability, and it still does not pass notability. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:30, 14 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Comment - In the months before an American election, we often have contentious AFDs and DRVs, and I sometimes wonder at the amount of effort expended to get an article for a candidate who is opposing an incumbent. I sometimes wonder whether the supporters of the candidate really think that being the subject of an individual article in the English Wikipedia will really be the difference between being elected and not being elected. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:30, 14 October 2026 (UTC)
    Very frustrating DRV.
    • I think that the regulars here agree with the appellant on that point. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:52, 15 October 2026 (UTC)
    Frank Anchor says the sources I list are "a mix of primary and routine". But none of the sources are WP:PRIMARY, they're all news articles, secondary.
    Robert McClenon says "the community decided ... Villegas does not pass general notability". But the AfDs did not decide on WP:GNG, they decided on WP:NPOL. Every single "no" vote cites this policy. Most candidates easily pass GNG (significant coverage in 2+ reliable sources, which Villegas trivially meets), but AfDs for candidates use NPOL and WP:NCAND, a narrower standard of "exceptional coverage".
    Noted and tweaked. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:52, 15 October 2026 (UTC)
    To meet that standard, I included substantial coverage from >20 news articles. McClenon calls this "reference bombing", despite the new version being a near-total rewrite where just one claim has >3 sources, namely: The primary was often framed as a battle between the party's "establishment" and "progressive" wing. (In fairness, I do follow WP:CITEEVERYTHING a bit hard.)
    Then McClenon calls me a partisan hack. I did the same thing for Zach Lahn, a Republican in an open election, now deleted. CopyleftEverything (talk) 20:31, 15 October 2026 (UTC)
    I did not, and that is casting aspersions. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:52, 15 October 2026 (UTC)
    CopyleftEverything is good-faith recreator frustrated by three things: (1) incorrect blanking-and-redirecting contrary to PAG, (2) the unhelpful advice they received to come to DRV which is the wrong place for them to get help with the problem -- and they got this unhelpful advice from the editor who is causing the problem, (3) having come here, to this place-of-no-help, being teased by remarks such as I sometimes wonder whether the supporters of the candidate really think that being the subject of an individual article in the English Wikipedia will really be the difference between being elected and not being elected.. —Alalch E. 00:18, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    Why is blanking and redirecting contrary to PAG in this case? This venue is obviously not the best one to determine whether an article should exist or not based on a well-attended AfD two months ago, but we're already here. If discussion here leads to better understanding of why this article should or should not exist in mainspace and leads to productive editing by one or more involved editors down the line, that is a net benefit, right? -- Reconrabbit (talk) 03:44, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Procedural close. This is a conduct matter relating to certain policy misconceptions held and acted on generally in good faith by errant reredirecters in violation of WP:BLAR. Report as edit warring and potentially status-quo stonewalling (not here, Deletion review is not a conduct forum). Any such errant reredirecter should not be an admin so User:Dr vulpes should resign or be recalled, and while that is not stricly the solution to the conduct dispute, it helps, because when admins do it, it is worse.—Alalch E. 00:09, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    This is an extremely harsh comment. I have thoughts on the procedural aspects, but this is a misunderstanding of procedure at worst, miles away from anything necessitating a recall. Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:42, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    When an admin does this, there is an increased likelihood that an average editor will listen to them and come to DRV, because they were told to do so by an admin. Thus, the admin's not being an admin in a case such as this helps insofar as the editor on the other side would have been less likely to take the wrong advice, which is a better scenario. Being in a position of of trust and confidence with the community makes mistakes by administrators in contributing to disputes and resolving disputes worse if only because the other side is more encouraged toward deference -- when a more assertive stance ("maybe I should not be taking advice from this editor who appears to be doing the wrong thing") would be better for resolving the dispute in the interest of the encyclopedia and the community. That is why a situation like this is serious. —Alalch E. 01:30, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    I have hit the rollback button accidentally, and in such a case it would have been better for me not to have had that button. Would you recall me for that? Recalling an admin over an error such as this is absurd. Recalling an admin over any error they are likely to learn from and not repeat is inappropriate, doubly so when we're in such murky procedural waters. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:41, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    Any such errant reredirecter should not be an admin so User:Dr vulpes should resign or be recalled, and while that is not stricly the solution to the conduct dispute, it helps, because when admins do it, it is worse. On the contrary, we should not be asking admins to resign or open a recall petition for something incorrect that was clearly done in good faith. Especially not for something that didn't involve any abuse of admin tools. A recall, while theoretically possible, would be a severe overreaction. Accessedgrant (Epicgenius mobile alt) (talk) 02:27, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    Hi all: Dr vulpes did nothing to upset me. Their advice was respectful and good faith. It's a messy situation to recreate a recently AfD'd article. I would not support a recall. :) CopyleftEverything (talk) 02:36, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
    No worries CopyleftEverything, I appreciate the clarification. I was just advising as to why a recall for something relatively minor is, to put it mildly, not a great idea. Accessedgrant (Epicgenius mobile alt) (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse, I suppose, in that the original discussion was assessed correctly by Dr vulpes. But that's largely irrelevant: Alalch E. is correct in precisely one thing, which is that this isn't the correct forum. DRV exists to review the decisions to delete. AfD exists to evaluate whether an article should remain. This article was recreated with enough new material that I would be unwilling to delete it under CSD#G4: therefore, to AfD it must go, and if a consensus of editors there decides to prohibit recreation via salting, that's the place for that too. Whether it should be kept at AfD, I'm not sure: this is yet another of our long string of US political candidate bios, where the meaning of ROUTINE coverage is something the community cannot agree on; but that's by-the-way. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:45, 17 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Endorse, deny requests to recreate. The AfD's were clear and need to be respected. It is standard practice, in US and other elections, that unelected candidates are presumed to not be worthy of standalone articles. When allowed, the article becomes a campaign forum, every new campaign event news story becomes the current best source, and none of these are worth keeping after the election. Keep working in draftspace. Wait for the election result. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:31, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
  • Comment: Dr vulpes I'd say it's pretty WP:SNOW, a supermajority !vote "endorse". Consensus is consensus even if I disagree. I don't want to waste people's time. :) CopyleftEverything (talk) 12:30, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
    @CopyleftEverything thanks for the ping, an uninvolved admin will come by and close this after seven days. Dr vulpes (Talk) 19:25, 18 October 2026 (UTC)
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

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